A good analysis of the effects of Nice

[NormanH]

This is one of the best analyses I have read about the current political situation in France, and how the Nice attack may have the effect of bolstering support for the FN.

Many British people living in France do not really follow French politics, but I urge you to think about this as it could have as serious an effect on our lives as Brexit, though perhaps in a less immediate or concrete way

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/17/attack-nice-hollande-response-state-emergency

[suein56]

NormanH said : Many British people living in France do not really follow French politics ...

So there I was poised to reply rejecting your statement when I stopped to think about my UK friends here and then I knew you were more right than wrong.

Which is an awful state of affairs.

Such an interesting article, no new points but a good reiteration, clearly laid out, of the present situation of the most influential French parties.

Isis is certainly doing its best to bring death, disappointment, disruption and divergence to our huddled masses by virtue of its continuing destructive actions.

Sue

[Patf]

I agree Norman, it also went through my mind that the FN will be strengthened by this terrible news. And they want France for the french.

I think I've mentioned somewhere that the english TV station France 24 is useful for keeping up with french news (probably biased though, as they all are.)

My french isn't good enough to follow the french channels so this is an alternative. I sometimes read the Depeche too, it uses fairly simple french language. I would never manage with french radio, always get the wrong end of the stick.

[Chancer]

You are definitely more right than wrong Norman.

On another place I posted a link to the latest news report as soon as I heard of the atrocity, it had already been done on this forum by someone who watched the events unfold, my posting was pretty late by comparison as I did not learn of it till the following morning.

 

And then only a couple of responses  but still loads of outpourings of angst regarding Brexit on multiple threads, I got PM' s from several people who said that they thought it was disgusting that people could be so disinterested in anything other than what might happen to them personally in the future, they said that they were PM'ing because they thought to post such heresy would result in a backlash.

 

So I did and it did! I made a comparison between the responses the morning after a democratic vote and the after the worst peacetime atrocity ever in France, it triggered a drunken rant and personal attack, then another and finally the thread was locked, quite rightly so, there have been no more postings on the subject ever since and by far the greatest volume of postings are on the multiple threads concerning Brexit.

 

The latter I understand and it has also breathed new life into this forum, the former I am really struggling to come to terms with.

 

A very thought provoking article Norman.

[chessie]

Two point Chancer;  firstly maybe there wasn't much in the way of comments about the atrocity in Nice simply because people were numbed and horrified.   Sometimes the words of 'so sorry...thoughts with families' etc etc - although meant well, sometimes seem very trite in the immediate aftermath.   Sometimes some atrocities are just simply beyond words.  My first thoughts - 'Poor, poor France...hurt again'.

I encountered this article yesterday - which I found informative - but I hesitated to post it because of the newspaper in which it is published, and which seems to arouse such sneering contempt - even though the article could equally appear in the Guardian.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3692981/How-ve-seen-France-love-torn-apart-hatred-LEO-MCKINSTRY-lived-decade-witnessed-growing-tensions-locals-Muslim-hardliners-despairs-future.html

I know personally people living here in France who did vote for 'Brexit' - even though they knew themselves that such a vote would quite likely have a detrimental effect on their lives out here - but did so in the interests of the UK and their own children and grand-children - because the eu is definitely in all kinds of trouble.   The UK wasn't listened to when various Governments tried to alter the course of the eu - and how many times do you get abused before walking out of the door.

The response of the 'elites' in Brussels - wishing to punish the UK for leaving, for not allowing the UK any reasonable deal to trade with the eu - should make people stop and think.   Why, if the club is so good, would they need to 'punish' a leaver - '...and dis-suade other countries from wishing to do the same...'.    So the eu elites are threatening other countries not to do a Brexit - not because those other countries actually 'wish' to stay in the eu - but that they are being bullied into not even thinking about it.

The accountability factor has to be considered as well.   We have a PM, and a Leader of the Opposition who can be dragged into a TV studio and 'Paxo'd' - we can look them in the eys, we can hear the, lie or not lie - but they are there in front of us.    Who in the eu could we drag into a British tv studio and 'paxo' ? - any idea ?    That's the loss of accountability - that is the lack of democracy - that is the 'elites' contempt for the european citizens.

Sorry - don't want to make multiple posts so this is my version of a P Toynbee article - several headings - take your pick !!

The Tour de France will be on later, the sun's shining - our families are here - everyone enjoy today.

[idun]

I agree with so much that has been said on here.

I was glad to hear that you had posted what you posted on another board Chancer..... no idea which board that would be........ at all..... but there must be some strange folk, (not in a good way)..... on there.

I have always felt that too many brits living in France, do not keep up with french news, and I watch France2's journal de 20H at 19h30 on TV5 monde most evenings. I was terribly disappointed in them that when the news was coming in about Nice, that they did not change to a news channel for ages. I saw the news about an hour after it had happened. Coming on here ... thought about it and then didn't.

Sometimes I think I was lucky to not have any options other than french tv and radio when I first moved to France and many subsequent years...... the world service was so crackly that we could never hear it, so it was french tv for us. And it took me a few years to realise that I could understand just about everything being said, say 4 years.

And I have been to Paris, and Brussels and my son has been to a few concerts at the Bataclan and I have read Charlie Hebdo........ but I felt deeply wounded by the attack in Nice. I am really fond of Nice and it's people......I have very very fond memories of holidaying there over many years. I am so sad for the people who have been affected by this.

[Chancer]

I agree with you Chessie, I was as dumbstruck as many so just posted a link to the breaking news so that people would at least know what was going on in their country.

In hindsight I should have left it at that, peopel PM'd me to express their disgust with people who's sole pre-occupation continued to be Brexit, they feared a backlash if they expresssed it publically but wanted to personally tell me that their thoughts were with the victims, they were correct in their reluctance and I should have done as they did.

 

In  my opinion, if you are an immigrant in France and are a worrier which I am not, then you have far more to be concerned about in France from terrorism and especially the increasing nationalism and rise of the extreme right than you have from some percieved future administrative and/or Financial problems from a Brexit, to quote Tom Clancy, there is a "Clear and present danger"

[alittlebitfrench]

Well, personally I don't think it is a good article so far as it does not really talk about the fundamental problems in France at the moment.

My OH woke me up in the middle of the night to tell me what had happened and to tell me not to turn on French telly in morning to protect the kids. It is very hard for French kids in France at the moment.

For some reason my gut instinct was that in was not a 'traditional' terrorist attack as such.

Personally I think this was more French (he had French nationality) on French. Deash was of course an influence but he was not your traditional terrorist. What caused him do this ?

Going back to the article, you have the political problems in France but also the deep social economic problems and I think this had more of an influence in the atrocity than than ISIS.

Do Brits need to understand French politics ??? Don't know. In terms of social economics then yes. If they understood, they would not move here.

Chancer, the other side has become very dark recently. Scary place. They are idiots yapping on about Brexit whilst living in some cosy idilic village watching sky news. They should come and live in 'REAL' France (sorry Betty) for a while. That might shut them up.

[lindal1000]

There are plenty of other places you can go to get French news without resorting to various forums. I first read it on the BBC website.. then through a Facebook group that was formed to initially to discuss and now to be a pressure group for British immigrants in France in relation to Brexit. By midday that morning the group had collected 450 messages of condolence, written in French by English speaking people in France. On Monday the messages will be printed off and sent to the Maire of Nice. Don't assume that just because people don't reply on forums that tells you anything much about anything. I also saw a link to that article on the same Facebook group and thought it was interesting..although I have always been aware that for us in France the danger is from the far right more than from brexit.

[NickP]

+1 ALBF, you have summed the situation up very well, especially your last paragraph spot on.

[mint]

Whilst it is undoubtedly the case that many Brits living in France pay scant attention to the news here and would not, for example, be able to name, say, the interior minister, it's also true that many French people (at least those that I meet on a daily basis) also know little of their own politics!

Beyond the bare headlines such as there has been un attentat at Nice, they don't know much more than that, how the situation developed, what might have led to the massacre, etc.

I meet many French people through my and OH's leisure activities.  Only last Friday, I walked with several dozen French people and picknicked with perhaps 30.  Some hadn't even heard the news that morning and I didn't manage to talk anyone at any depth about the affair.

Certainly, here in rural France, we live in a bulle of peace and sunshine and daily activities.  People from different parts of France visit us and stay for a few days or a few weeks but, once they are here, they seem to adopt our way of ignoring all that is disturbing or unpleasant.

So not just the Brits and I think it's only fair to make this point.

I do, of course, have politically- and socially-aware French friends but to meet those, I'd have to go to our Café Associatif and even there, I'd have to pick a relevant "café", say, the écriture or lecture café to discuss things more a bit more profound than the weather.

[Chancer]

I can understand people not watching French TV etc, at first I had both but thanks to the unkindness of a British person who I naively felt sorry for (their world had ended because their Skybox packed up) and lent my Freesat reciever to and reset their parabole etc and who never returned it as promised, I had only French TV, not enough money to live on and it took me 8 years before I could replace it, it turned out to be the best favour ever.

However since getting Sky up and running I Watch less and less French TV in fact barely at all now, not because of the language but because I barely have any time to Watch TV and when it comes to choosing Sky wins hands down.

I was unaware of the Bataclan attack, a woman phoned me to say she had an appartement reserved for her and her family that afternoon that they were at Peronne and the musée was closed and to quote here "everywhere is closed" I didnt think that was unsual for our area where places only stay open for the pleasure of saying they were closed, she said she was cancelling and returning home, technically she owed me for the stay but in the interests of good relations I just thanked her for informing me and said that it was OK, I was bitng my tongue though.

Then I switched on French TV in an appartment when doing a changeover (thats the time I Watch it now) and heard the dreadfull breaking news, I felt terrible and phoned her to apologise for sounding so unsympathetic because I had not known what had happened she said that after talking with their husband they now wanted to stay because it would have been dangerous and maybe difficult to return to their home in Paris, at that time they were chasing the culprits across Northern France and the two armed stand offs were happening.

[idun]

Ofcourse many french people are as ignorant of french affairs, just as much as british people are ignorant of british affairs too. That is people for you.

ie My old neighbour seemed to think that we were NNW of Geneva, ie the

Jura, whereas we were SSW of Geneva. The weather forecasts must have been very

confusing for him for much of the year.

I personally felt that as a guest, because I was always that I was a guest in France, it was up to me to know what was going on in France, just to be polite, and I am not too proud to say that there was probably some self interest involved too, along with natural curiosty. Even in Nullpartville-en-Pleincampagne, there were enough people who were interesting and interested in what was going on in France, and sometimes the world to have good discussions and form good friendships.

Will all this help the FN? I really do not know. Maybe the politicans should wake up and really listen to what people want, especially to those living in the cites.

[alittlebitfrench]

The question is, would the FN be such a bad thing for France ? Shake things up a bit.

Lets be clear, they will get into the second round in France next year.

Last time this happened people voted for Chirac when they did not want want Chirac. They did so just to get rid of the FN. I am guessing that won't happen this time.

[idun]

I remember well the presidentielle between Chirac and LePen and I also remember how happy friends of mine were the following year when Chirac did not enter into the war to invade Iraq. I cannot remember anyone I knew saying other than that, and it did come up in conversation, all to often.

And frankly they seemed happier with Chirac then, than they EVER have been with Hollande.

[lindal1000]

The FN would be a terrible thing for Europe and to be honest it scares me to think that otherwise sensible people are thinking like that..It may shake things up, but not in the way people hope. Just as brexit will..it will never deliver on what people think.

Yet another reason to take French citizenship, so that I can vote in the country that I now consider home.

[NormanH]

It is one thing that makes me wonder.

Do I want to be a National of a country that elects a leader from the FN?

I already live in a town with Robert Ménard as Maire.

But then I look at UKIP's popularity and the new UK cabinet and I don't see any real difference.

[alittlebitfrench]

[quote user="idun"]I remember well the presidentielle between Chirac and LePen and I also remember how happy friends of mine were the following year when Chirac did not enter into the war to invade Iraq. I cannot remember anyone I knew saying other than that, and it did come up in conversation, all to often.

And frankly they seemed happier with Chirac then, than they EVER have been with Hollande.

[/quote]

....and Chirac said to Blair and Bush that if you invade Iraq 'you will open up a hornets nest'.

How right he was.

Of course the Americans in protest poured French wine down drains and called French Fries 'Freedom Fries'. I was myself subjected to much abuse from my countrymen for not believing in the war.

And here we are today.

Bring back Chirac.

[idun]

NH, doesn't feel like that from here. The FN always felt like it was more extreme than UKIP has been so far. I remember the J-M Le Pen days and Marine has tried to make it seem less extreme, but I do not trust it as there is that word 'seem' involved.

[alittlebitfrench]

Going back to what I said earlier this is probably a more relevant article.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/muslims-in-nice-knew-they-would-be-blamed-by-association-for-the-nice-atrocity-a7141811.html

But is does not just apply to Nice it applies to everywhere. Even in the loverly Dordogne.

Disaffected unemployed people with no future. Throw into the mix mental health problems, criminality and the influence of Deash and you unfortunately get the feeling this won't be the last of such attacks.

What a mess we are in.

[suein56]

a little bit French wrote : what a mess we are in

Even our local newspaper agrees with you :

http://www.ouest-france.fr/societe/faits-divers/attentat-nice/attentat-de-nice-tensions-politiques-exacerbees-2017-en-toile-de-fond-4373102

Politicians are rushing to make their point. Could there be an election next year, by any chance ?

Apologies but I cannot make a clickable link on my tablet.

[idun]

In France the maghrebans were moved into cites. In the UK, as with many ethnic groups who move to other countries, there are too many who move to the same area, making it a 'Little Whereever'.  The knock on effect of this is never good.

As a muslim lady on british tv said, the only people the children end up seeing are those from their ethnic origins, even at school where they end up being in the majority, This will be exactly the same with the french cites. This lady had started an association to get the kids out and about and mixing.

French news quite some time ago was talking about young people from the cites around Paris lying on their cv's about where they lived, in order to get jobs, because their qualifications counted for less with their addresses. And I'm sure that their names count against them too, no matter their republican values....... if they have them? edit  and what encouragement to have them!

[alittlebitfrench]

Idun, your last paragraph is very true. Your name is sadly important. Even an English surname could work against you !!!!!!

In terms of schools I think there is more integration in France than in the UK. The difference is that after school it is very difficult to get a job or a well paid job...even more so when you are from certain area. It is not the same in the UK.

Half if not most of what is written in the UK media is utter rubbish so I would not base my opinions of France from reading those sources. Even those media sources trying to sell you a dream. It is just not reality.

[chessie]

Ref the FN and UKIP, and AfD and others;  shouldn't we be asking 'Why' are these groups becoming popular - isn't that the real question ?   Because it is right across europe, european citizens are not happy with the 'establishment' because the citizens' views have been ignored.   Now whose fault is that ?

Can someone help me please ?    There was an article in the Guardian last couple of days about 'lack of support (Government/media ?) - for those who wish to reform Islam.... and I didn't get the time to read it.   It's now disappeared from the Guardian web-site, can't find it on Google - just wondered if anyone had read the article.

Maybe there's clues in that article.    Talking with friends over the weekend the consensus is that they wanted, very strongly, for the Nice murderer to be a 'deranged nutter' - because if it was a 'lone wolf terrorist' then they were worried about the implications.

I think the points made earlier about the way Muslims tend to congregate together, the children attend the same schools, that is a very closed world - is spot-on, and a good analysis of part of the problem.   But please look around the world;  I hate to say it but wherever there are a lot of Islam followers - there is trouble.   

There is a need to bring this 'religion/cult' into the 21st century;  there are some brave people trying to reform it - but there seems to be little mention of them - and they have had threats against their lives.    Doesn't it make you wonder, sometimes, about that 'religion' ?

The UN in a report 6 months ago said 'the world is in a mess' - one could see the metaphorical 'shrug of the shoulders, the heads in hands' - the feeling that even the UN doesn't have any answers.

Then you look at Turkey;  anyone believe in conspiracy theories ?   Any conspiracy theory nowadays could almost be believed.

It's becoming a sad, dangerous world - not what I had hoped to leave for my children and grand-children...and I'm sad.

[alittlebitfrench]

Chessie wrote..

"I think the points made earlier about the way Muslims tend to congregate together, the children attend the same schools, that is a very closed world - is spot-on, and a good analysis of part of the problem."

A little bit hypocritical.

Is that not what the British do when moving abroad. They have to move to the same areas, villages and towns and make a living by selling bake beans and bacon to each other whilst playing cricket. Thinking of 'certain areas/villages' in SW France !!!!

Does that annoy the locals ? If you are not Muslim then it is OK. Yes ?