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This is one for Chancer


mint

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Chance, could you please give me your thoughts on this tricky situation?  I am asking you because I think you have some consideration knowledge of what to do if someone chases you for money you don't owe!

Here goes:

I changed internet provider back in September, from SFR to Sosh.  I spoke to the résilation team at SFR and they sent me the labels to return their equipment.

All done and I have proof of receipt from Colissimo.  Next thing, SFR sent me a bill as though nothing had taken place and I was still their customer.

So, nothing for it but to speak again with SFR.  I pointed out that I had not had any service from them since end of September, that my SFR email no longer worked, that my phone number was no longer theirs, that I no longer had any equipment of theirs.  So, asked I, could you give me a final bill, svp?  In fact, the bill that they sent and which I didn't pay had a month in advance so, theoretically, I don't owe them but they owe me!  NOT that I expect money back, just for them to acknowledge I'd finished with them.

Now they have sent me an SMS to say they are suspending my service for late payment!  What service?  I haven't had any for 2 months and I had told them all about it.

Chance, should I just ignore them and hope they'll go away?  Ring again? (not keen)  Write to them?

Thanks.

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How to deal with these companies is one thing and both Chancer and I have had experience of spurious 'huissiers' etc, so I am sure he will have advice for you.

On the other hand as you know I have just been through the same change as you.

I had two different 'old' suppliers, Free for my mobile and SFR for the Internet.

For the first month Free continued to take their money but since they have given me a refund and a 0 bill for from now on.

SFR couldn't take anything because I had cancelled the order, but  in any case they too have just refunded me a small amount for the last month I had paid in full but not used all of.

It may just be a delay in their accounting.

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If they do not take payment from you automatically then just let it take its slow and painfull course, if they send further bills then write once and once only setting out what you said on the phone, say you will not reply to further communications.

Then throw away everything except lettre recommandées and dont be intimidated by them, they are probably not what they are pretending to be.

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  • 1 month later...
[quote user="Chancer"]

If they do not take payment from you automatically then just let it take its slow and painfull course, if they send further bills then write once and once only setting out what you said on the phone, say you will not reply to further communications.

Then throw away everything except lettre recommandées and dont be intimidated by them, they are probably not what they are pretending to be.

[/quote]

The textos have stopped but the bills keep coming.  So, today, I have fallen back on your advice and written to them, enclosing copies of the receipt from the Bureau de Poste given to me when I sent their equipment back and of my new contract with Orange.

I invited them to note that the parcel was sent using etiquettes that they themselves had provided and that they must therefore know that I no longer have their line.

As advised by you, I have told them that this is my last contact with them as I no longer wish to continue to respond to their communications.

I couldn't actually bring myself to send them my salutations distinguées or otherwise and simply put cordialement, though I felt no cordiality towards them whatsoever.

Thank you, Chance.  I have kept at the back of my mind your advice all these weeks.  And so just the trip to the bureau to send the docs by avis de réception.............ggggrrrrr.......

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Oooo, mint,

I think you might have been uber-friendly in signing off "cordialement" - though I would like guidance from ericd to confirm this...

"Salutations distinguées" is nicely distant in a letter.

You seem to get "cordialement" more in emails and textos.

And more to people you know a bit, like the local plumber etc.

I hope your letter works, anyway!

Angela
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Thank you, Angela, I haven't been to the post office yet so I will scratch out "cordialement" but leaving it visible and write "mes salutations distinguées" in my own writing, just so that they know I have changed my mind about being friendly.

I saw a letter from the new provider with "cordialement" but I guess they want to be real friendly towards me...ha, ha!

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  • 2 months later...
The saga continues and now I have to admit to being uneasy so have returned to ask for further advice.

Today, I received a letter from Intrum Justitia.  Didn't take long to google that and they appear to be a genuine debt-collecting company with HQ in Sweden and 19 offices around Europe.  My letter has come from 69795 St Priest.

So far, I have followed your advice, Chance, sent a final letter with avis de réception, setting out the date they received their equipment back, referring to previous letters, phone calls, emails.  I thought the affair was finally finished but it doesn't appear to be the case.

I have also found dozens of similar complaints on the net about SFR and this particular company.  So, what next?

I am determined not to pay what I don't owe.  It's not a big sum, 60 euros or so and, in the past, I paid Orange (when it was France Telecom) for 3 months' internet when I didn't even have a phone line.  In those days, I was new in France and just wanted a quiet life but now I am more in mind to fight my corner.

But how in heaven's name can these companies get away with not acknowledging receipt of any letters, refusing to engage with the client and keep on demanding money with impunity?

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If you have googled the company you will also have discovered that there are loads of other sites and even forums which describe them in more or less negative terms, particularly that they do not seem to have any legal status beyond bullying.

Talking about SFR, when moving, I decided to dump them as their internet service was very weak and then they even managed to get an extra payment of some 30 euros or so, well after they had been told I was leaving and had followed the procedures to the letter.

I got the bank to 'faire opposition' to any other payments.

What I think they do is wait until they get your digibox sent to some obscure address, then take their time unpacking it (actually, they chuck it in a bin), all the time taking payments

Then they slowly acknowledge your departure and take yet another payment.

It is probably all there in the contract, I think.
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Nimt, they cannot recover a debt unless there has been a judgement for which you would have been summoned to the court, so Pro Justicia are just flying a kite, have no legal basis.

Concerning SFR, this link seems to discuss a similar case to yours, rather common with some big companies, I suspect.

http://www.commentcamarche.net/forum/affich-25943033-litige-sfr-intrum-justitia
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For once WB is right on something.

This is precisely what Chancer have been saying about this firm.

They are a genuine firm, but such a firm can only act with a court order behind them, which they haven't got usually. They play on people's ignorance and fear of huissiers to send out letters which trick you into paying up.

They can make the demand because SFR has mandated them to (in my case it was Orange spit) but they can't enforce it.

Ignore them. If you give them any sign of life they will try to make your life misery.

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Thank you for your reassurances.  And, WB, your link was the very one that I read when I did my research this morning.

Anyway, I am prepared to sit it out but, to reassure OH, I was passing the mairie on the way to post a letter and I called in.  Our secretaire rang the debt company straightaway and they said I owed the money for the résiliation fee.

I did write to SFR eventually in January by yet another lettre recommandée and they sent me more labels (16 fev) 4 months after they received the old equipment and after I requested my final bill.

Norman, I remembered to include your phrase about my contract having been changed by SFR and that therefore I was not liable to pay any résiliation fee.

Still, if I have a genuine debt, I will of course pay it but I believe you have said in the past, Norman, that Orange's agreement to reimburse the résiliation fee only lasts for a limited period.  So, if I do pay up, it is unlikely that I will get any reimbursement.

It's not my fault that they only tell me it's a résiliation fee 6 months later and only after contacting the debt company!  So, I am still in two minds whether to pay up or not.  They are such sneaky swine and I have had nothing but harrassment from them for the 6 months since I ended my contract perfectly legitimately.

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Thanks, Wools, I think the documentation says 45 euros so they are obviously asking me for an abbonement as well.

I'll perhaps pay it and send some copies to Orange, explaining that the résiliation stuff has just arrived and hope they do reimburse me.  And to think I have asked and asked, with every email, every phone call for a final bill.................gggrrrrrr......!

Maybe I'll send them 45 euros and say that they in fact owed me for the October abbonement as I paid that in advance under my contract.  Or maybe I shall just pay up as I am getting worn down with the constant harrassment.

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Hello again..............just testing as I seemed to have been logged out automatically.

Yes, will pay the bill and fall back on the good nature of Orange to refund me.  Just come back to say this in case it's of help to someone else in the same situation.

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The point was that SFR changed the conditions of the contract in August 2016, and you had 4 months in which to cancel saying that you weren't in agreement with the new terms. That gave a loophole of having nothing to pay, unlike a normal cancellation fee.

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Thank you, Norman.  My inquietude having somewhat subsided and I have now looked at the letter that accompanied the labels sent to me, dated 16.02.17, it said that my SFR souscrite has ended since 25.09.16 and said that the résiliation fee would be 45 euros.

So, I will send back the labels, send yet again the colissimo receipt for the equipment and say once more that I owe nothing as it was they who changed the conditions of the contract!

So no paying of the 63 euros demanded and be prepared to be dug in for a long and tedious war of attrition.

My reckoning is that if I do pay up, they are only going to come after me later for non return of their sodding equipment.

This evening, after I have had some food, I am sending you a PM about something that I am sure you will know about and that is of more interest to me than this poxy debt collecting firm[:D]

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[quote user="NormanH"]The point was that SFR changed the conditions of the contract in August 2016, and you had 4 months in which to cancel saying that you weren't in agreement with the new terms. That gave a loophole of having nothing to pay, unlike a normal cancellation fee.

[/quote]

As they have now (finally) admitted that my contract with them finished on 25 September, that shows that I am well within the 4 months you have spoken about.

Could you, after you are replete with Sunday lunch and in a post prandial glow of goodwill towards all mankind, please, please, please point me to somewhere that states you have this 4-month period of grace, stp?

I'd feel on firmer ground if I have something to quote and can then stand my ground against the big, bad wolf who is coming a-knocking on my door?

Sue56, if you are reading, you'd perhaps know straight off?

Anyone else accomplished at reading small print, please?

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I had terrible problems with Tiscali, or one of it's never ending name changes or what ever it was. Got a letter from them at half eleven on a Saturday morning, recorded delivery with severe threats. And I literally ran round the house screaming.......... what my eldest's girlfriend thought, I did not care, I just needed to vent, because there was nothing I could do.

That afternoon, I got every last bill and bank statement out and did my accounts, marrying up everything. I owed nothing. Managed to get that sorted the following week...... until the next time.

Again threatening letters and as I had paid by cheque, and had only kept a copy of the front of the cheque, asked my bank for a copy of the back of this chq but they would only give me a copy of the front of the chq, and as I knew that I had written all the details about the account to be credited on the back of the chq. Said it was illegal for me to see the back of the chq once it had been cashed.

Never properly got sorted, although the threats stopped.

So unfair all this in France, and I do not know why or how companies still keep getting away with it.

http://www.economie.gouv.fr/dgccrf/coordonnees-des-DDPP-et-DDCSPP

The link above should be live. Call this awful company that is messing you about on Monday, tell them that you have to speak to a Manager and tell them that you are getting in touch with the DGCCRF if they do not sort it out for you IMMEDIATELY.

And I can think of other people to get in touch with too.

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Gosh Mint I am horrified to hear that you are still having problems with SFR. Below explains a little :

https://www.quechoisir.org/actualite-sfr-numericable-les-augmentations-ouvrent-droit-a-resiliation-n1319/

Just check that you have complied exactly with SFR's belief of the correct procedure to cancel - if you have then you have little to fear. And the others are right about Intrum Justitia, this company is beyond belief. This comment is from a disgruntled person on the site 'Comment ça marche' :

Intrum Justitia est une société de recouvrement amiable, pas une étude d'huissier. ... tout ce qu'ils font, c'est illégal.

As has been said IJ have no legal right to harrass you in this way. They need a court judgement against you to act, which they do not have ... but that will not stop them trying to bluff by using threats against you regardless of the fact that they have no such judgement.

Hang on in there.

I will try and find some concrete info.

Edit : It is exactly this which concerns you :

Conformément à l’article L. 121-84 du code de la consommation, SFR doivent non seulement prévenir leurs clients du changement de tarif « au moins un mois avant son entrée en vigueur », mais aussi les informer de leur droit à résilier le contrat sans frais dans les 4 mois suivant la modification.

SFR did this (albeit in small print) - and you complied - so you can just wait and see what happens - though you could be harassed for quite a while by IJ.

If you can hold on long enough then IJ should give up.

Be aware that IJ buy 'problems' from SFR for very little money and make their profit from adding high fees to the original 'debt'. IJ know not, and care not, ref the rights and wrongs of the perceived debt, they are just a business, so do not enter into discussions with them. Above all do not ring them as they will harass you even more by phone at all hours.

Sue
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Phew, thank you, all you kind-hearted folk!  Sue, you have given me just the right ammunition to write to them............yet again!

Having been weakened by weeks of interrupted nights (getting up for poor old doggy, though OH's knee is well enough for him to shoulder his share again), I was truly overwhelmed. 

I must admit I was coming to the point of just paying up because, as id says, there are tons of paperwork to dig up, and the cost of letters with avis de réception is mounting up.  However, you have now stiffened my resolve and I am up for the confrontation[:)]

Giving in to bullies is after all no way for any self-respecting étrangère to go, is it? 

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Mint wrote : Sue, you have given me just the right ammunition to write to them............yet again!

Mint who are you writing to ?

Follow your own advice and do nowt.

Mint wrote in reply to Chancer : As advised by you, I have told them that this is my last contact with them as I no longer wish to continue to respond to their communications.

IJ have no legal leg to stand on and you have long since left SFR. As you say technically SFR owe you money !!

Sue
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Oh, Sue, I wish I had read your letter before resentfully leaving my garden in glorious sunshine, to write to SFR yet again[:'(]

I quoted the paragraph you gave me, I copied out the colissimo receipt for the equipment and I said that if they or their agent IJ do not stop pestering me, I shall take my whole dossier to DDCSPP de Dordogne (this last organisation outlined by idun's post)

I was going to make yet another trek to the Bureau de Poste to send the letter by registered post tomorrow morning but I will now not do that and save my money and energy for something more worthwhile.

What I most resent is the time I have wasted on all this.............just because they can't be bothered to read letters or emails, ignore everything you say on phone calls and keep churning out stuff that sound more and more threatening.  Plus, it's my poor husband that is the most worried as he is of the generation who cannot bear to have any perceived debt hanging over them........aaahhhhh...........id, I wish I could scream like you did!!!

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