Anti-discrimination laws in France?

[Mishtoon]

Hi there,

Not sure if this is the right place to post this...

I wondered if anyone knew what the law in France is as regards Discrimination against European citizens living in the country.  Does any law exist?  I believe that there is anti-discrimination law in the workplace but what about generally.  Are the French inside the law if they make comments about people, for example, based on their national identity?

Standing at the school gates every day, the english parents there constantly receive 'comments' about being English.  'Oh look, the English are in a huddle again,'   'Hello English Meeting!', that type of thing.  I wouldn't mind so much but these are often initiated by the Headmaster!  At first one laughs and makes funny comments back but after a while it becomes just boring.  My normal reaction would be to ignore it but if the Headmaster himself is talking like this, I wonder how this manifests itself to the English children (or rather non-French children) who attend the school.

I know we don't come to France expecting that we will necessarily be welcomed with open arms but every member of the French community, but I find the fact that the headmaster makes often snide comments, in public, in front of the French and English, adults and children alike, unacceptable.

Whare are your thoughts, anyone?

Thanks,

[Bugsy]

Comments such as those quoted are based, unfortunately, on fact. There are, in france, many areas where the 'brits' do stay within their groups and make little or no attempt to mix with the locals. That said, Spain is much worse. I am not suggesting that you personally fit into that picture of course.

Surely the answer to this is pretty simple, don't stand around in groups and do mingle with the locals.

As regards the discrimination thing I think you'd be laughed out of any french courtroom.

IMHO, of course.

[Boiling a frog]

Perhaps try and speak with some of the French parents would go some way to avoid this problem.After all what it sound like is a clique of English not wanting to talk to the French just like some in our local bar who insist in standing in a huddle,talking loudly in English,and not even making an effort to speak some French

Try and see it from the other side

[Clair]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]... a clique of English not wanting to talk to the French just like some in our local bar who insist in standing in a huddle,talking loudly in English,and not even making an effort to speak some French...[/quote]

BaF, I did not know you had visited the local bar in the village up the road...[Www]

Mishtoon, are you serious about this or just letting off steam?

Could it be that what you perceive as "snide comments" are simply an awkward way of not making you feel ignored?

Maybe they don't know how to approach your group and feel slightly intimidated by the perceived language barrier...?

If these people simply walked past without saying anything, would you think them rude and ignorant?

[londoneye]

Hi

Upsetting as those comments may be, in my personal view they are not discriminatory in the true sense of the word.   

I don't know the in's and out's of the law in France as regards discrimination.  However, you are likely to be looking at a relative complex situation in law if you talk about discrimination, as the law probably is a combination of european umbrella type law and specific to France.

In general terms discrimination tends to mean (although there are exceptions) that you are denying someone something (eg an opportunity), which does not seem to be the case here.   If, on the other hand you feel that the comments are impacting (and have evidence to show that this is the case) on the education of your children, and the prime reason for this is that the children are English, then I suppose you have more of a case.     I wouldn't have thought however that you had much chance of proving that.

In respect of the comments actually discriminating against you (for example on the basis of, say, national or social origin), then I would imagine you are even less likely to find a case for any detriment here. 

If you feel so strongly about this, then your best option is to arrange a meeting with the headmaster and explain that albeit he is probably having a bit of a joke with you (and why wouldn't he think this is the case, since you admittedly laughed along at the beginning?), you would prefer it that the children were not made to feel 'different' in this way.

If I am wrong, then very happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable on French discrimination law ...

 

[Mishtoon]

I take on board and agree with both of your comments, thanks.

I had a discussion with the headmaster yesterday whereby he made some comment about the English standing together and talking English.  This wasn't and often isn't the case as some of us have been here long enough now to have made good French friends and we also stand in the playground talking French.  My French is very good and I always talk French to the French, some of the other English parents' French isn't so good, admittedly, but all of them try their very best.

I do see it from the other side, the French side, but I don't like being lumped into this big lump of 'the english'.  I do make an effort to speak French, all the time, I invite French children over to play with my children, I participate in school life, invite the local French parents around and I object when French people do make the remark that all the English are the same, as this simply isn't true.  There are a good proportion of us going out of our way to make an effort to 'integrate'.  I did say all of this to the headmaster but it just seemed to wash over his head, another English rabbiting on in poor French is what he probably thought.

I of course wasn't going to take anything further, as regards the 'discrimination' element of my question originally.  I was just curious as to whether there is anti-discrimination law in France.  If we were in England, and I fully accept we are not, we would not dare to make comments to the asian, chinese, black, etc, members of the community who may be standing in the playground.  It would be accepted as rude, offensive, inappropriate and possibly discriminatory.  I just wondered whether we expats in France are afforded the same rights living here as the British afford to non-British people living in the UK?

[londoneye]

Even if you were in England, and the headmaster said, 'I see all the parents of ethnic asian origin are standing together' I don't think it would be regarded for one minute as discrimination.    Tactless, and open to several different interpretations maybe, but not discrimination.   Because, if you said, 'I see all the French parents are standing together' that wouldn't seem like discrimination would it ? - it would seem like a fact !!

[cooperlola]

Clair will correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression from my French friends and acquaintaces round here, that they kind of expect us to want to be together.  Whenever I meet somebody new who is French, they always say something like : "Do you know British person x who lives in x?"  And they often seem to want to introduce me to them as if I should want to mix with them, and that it would be slightly odd if I did not.  There are few of us round here though so I guess we don't seem all that cliquey.

[londoneye]

I think Clair has actually hit the nail on the head.   This comes across to me as the headmasters way of actually trying to include the group in conversation generally.     

Ref Cooperlola's point, the Mayor here seems to be very keen to drag around to our house any old English person he can find with him (drinks all around of course - hey maybe thats the reason !), in order that we can have some little friends.   Sadly they are normally the last people you genuinely have anything in common with, and you never see them again (albeit I am sure they are very nice people).

[Clair]

I have to agree with Cooperlola's comment, as unfortunately, I get the very same comments myself, despite being French, albeit with a British OH...

[Mishtoon]

Hi,

Thanks for all your comments and views.  That's why I like this Forum!  It provokes discussion which, for me, helps me come to a conclusion.

I think all of your comments are valid.  I suppose that my issue is that of the effect that such attitudes may have on how my children are treated at school.  We have enough French friends now to know that there are many French who like the English very much (and as many, we are told, also, who do not).  But I think what I find offputting is the fact that the Headmaster makes the comments and sometimes in a very nasty way.  If he himself has a view of the English and I am lead to believe he does have a negative one, by the comments he makes and the way in which he says them, then that view could transmit itself to the teachers and children within the school.  I say could as I am not there so I don't know.  This could lead to nasty comments being made to the English children in the school which I personally would think unfair.

I can accept that sometimes if the English are standing around in a group chatting that this will be viewed in a particular way.  I for my part tend to make sure that I wander in and out of the French and English groups so that the French do not perceive that all the English want to do all the time is stand around in an English huddle.  I always speak French to the French, even if they are trying to speak to me in English.

I do accept that perhaps we are often seen as a pain in the neck, most of us arriving without any spoken French under our belt, with our children speaking only English to begin with.  We stick our children in the school, in effect expecting the teachers to pick up and run with that and be able to teach our children adequately.  I accept that if there are English, therefore, who seemingly refuse to learn the language, that this will be very annoying for the French.  What I don't like (and I can't really change that I suppose) is that I am lumped into the category of 'Here is an English woman, wants to stick only in English community, doesn't bother to learn the language, etc' - boxed.  Am I being too sensitive?  I suppose reading back over this, perhaps I am.  But it makes for good discussion doesn't it?

Thanks again for your replies.  I think I might pick the right time to talk to the Headmaster in a non-confrontational way and try to break down some of the barriers that may exist.

 

[lacote0_0]

To answer your original question, there is anti discrimination law,

which does not exclude discrimination on the basis of "origin". See

article 225 1 of the Penal Code:

"Discrimination comprises any distinction applied between natural

persons by reason of their origin, sex, family situation, physical

appearance or patronymic, state of health, handicap, genetic

characteristics, sexual morals or orientation, age, political opinions,

union activities, or their membership or non-membership, true or

supposed, of a given ethnic group, nation, race or religion."

(Translation of the French included in the official legal website).

http://195.83.177.9/code/liste.phtml?lang=uk&c=33&r=3716#art16295

The European Court of Human Rights sits on French soil, and the French courts apply the European Convention on Human Rights:

http://www.lexisnexis.fr/depeches/index2.jsp?date_new=2007-10-04&url_key=/data/03102007/03102007-210829.html&jour_jo=Jeudi

There is also a Commission:

http://www.halde.fr/

But

I don't think what you describe is discriminatory, nor even

particularly rude; on the contrary it may actually be an attempt,

perhaps misconceived, to involve the group of which you form part.

[cooperlola]

I do take your point about the children, Mishtoon.  It isn't their fault and it's sad if they feel like outsiders, even if it's just a perception rather than a reality.  I'm sure your quiet approach to the HM is really the most sensible one.  He probably doesn't even realise he's doing it half the time,or appreciate the effect if can have.  We adults though, just have to confront it and get on with it most of the time.

[londoneye]

Yes but this would never come within the ambit of the Human Rights Act, because Art 14 (prohibition on the basis of discrimination) only secures the enjoyment of the rights and freedoms contained within the Convention itself, it is not a 'stand-alone' protection against discrimination.