In search of Plantagenet France.

[Logan]

Here is an interesting idea. The British are moving to France to re-establish the ancient Plantagenet kingdom of Henry 11. The romantic vision of Britains past within a modern pragmatic French state. It's enough to give the nationalists heart failure.

http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_m_z/andreas_whittam_smith/article2793058.ece

[Clair]

The paper version of the Le Monde article discussed elsewhere on the forum shows a map of Plantagenet France which support the"re-creation" theme!

[Logan]

To speculate deliciously for a moment during a dreary morning of rain and more rain.  Imagine in the future enough British people moving permanently to Aquitaine and being elected to local office as either Maire or Counsellor and having real political clout. Perhaps an independence from France movement could begin. Union with Britain might then become a political aspiration or even full self governing independence. Linkage with the Basque Nationalists might take place to further pressurise the French government to agree union or separation.

An interesting speculative question. Would you as a resident of France rather currently be governed by France or Britain? How different would your lives be under Mr Brown rather than Sarko.

In old Plantagenet France the residents and England fought a long campaign to remain part of Henry’s kingdom. France eventually overcame resistance because the English armies ran out of steam and money. Could history repeat itself?

 

[Thibault]

The nation state we know as France today is relatively new (in historical terms).  After all, Nice and Savoy only "joined" in the mid 1860s.

The history of the French crown over the years has been to painstakingly acquire all those independent duchies etc one by one to "grow" France.  It has led to some interesting marriage alliances.  For example, Eleanor of Acquitaine was quite a prize for the King of France - what a pity she gave him only daughters and Henry II all those warring sons [:)].  Then there was Anne of Brittany - married off to two Kings of France and again, only daughters.  Both ladies wanted only because of their lands.

 

 

[Wendy]

This is of interest to me as my 25th Great Grandfather was Thomas of Brotherton, son of Edward I and Margaret Capet of France. Thomas actually spawned the Dukes of Norfolk.

[Renaud]

I am not sure that I would wish to live in Aquitaine if it was governed by Gordon Brown.

[Thibault]

[quote user="Jura"]

This is of interest to me as my 25th Great Grandfather was Thomas of Brotherton, son of Edward I and Margaret Capet of France. Thomas actually spawned the Dukes of Norfolk.

[/quote]

 

So....you're a cousin of Mathew Pinset (?sp) then [:)]

[chessfou]

Plus ça change ...

In the 14th century the English royals in Aquitaine and the local inhabitants spoke different languages (French & Occitan) as they still do in the 20th-21st centuries (only now it's English & French).

Richard the Lionheart, though, may have been primarily an Oc speaker (he certainly read and wrote in the language).

[Hoddy]

Plenty of locals around here still speak Occitan.

Hoddy

[Judith]

[quote user="Hoddy"]Plenty of locals around here still speak Occitan.

Hoddy[/quote]

You can have lessons in Occitan in Narbonne.  Very strong move towards re-introducing the language in this area.  I would be interested in learning, but suspect I'd have even more memory problems with my French vocabulary if I did so.

[chessfou]

[quote]I would be interested in learning, but suspect I'd have even more memory problems with my French vocabulary if I did so.[/quote]

Well, if your French is reasonable and especially if you have a little Spanish, you should find it possible to make sense of simple Occitan - have a go at the tourist info signs on ancient monuments and you may also find that your local paper has a page of Occitan at least one day a week (e.g. Sunday's "Centre Presse" in Aveyron).

[Judith]

Its the Spanish which would let me down - I'm of the two beers please level in that language I fear! But many thanks for your encouragement.

In some ways it reminds me of the Cornish and Breton I have seen written and indeed also of Welsh.  I did a one day course in Welsh when I had hoped to work there nearly 10 years ago, and I realised that it was not something I was going to get to grips with easily.  It was not just the vocabulary, but the way the sentences were constructed which is totally different from those languages I already knew. Interestingly, today I attended a lecture on medieval English, and I think they all may bear some ressemblance to (or even development from) that. 

[Jill<br><br>Jill (99)]

[quote user="Judith"] Interestingly, today I attended a lecture on medieval English, and I think they all may bear some ressemblance to (or even development from) that. 
[/quote]

If that aspect of language interests you, i.e. origines, then try "Adventure in English" by Melvyn Bragg.  There is also a woman who wrote a book about the evolvement of French, but I can't think of her name.  I attended a lecture by her a few years ago.  It was quite interesting the way some words went from French into medieval English, then returned to French with quite a different meaning - particularly in the legal system, I think. 

I did manage to make a roughly comprehensible translation of a 13th century troubadour song a few years ago with my knowledge of French, Italian and a bit of Spanish.  I'd love to study medieval French and English.  I think the routes of language are fascinating.

[chessfou]

The woman you are referring to, Henriette Walter, has written quite a few books on and around the subject.

If your French is up to it, I recommend them all but especially:

L'Aventure des langues en occident

L'Aventure des mots français venus d'ailleurs

Le Français d'ici, de là, de là-bas

and, above all (for this thread):

Honni soit qui mal y pense

Good as those books are, minority languages (especially Irish and Occitan rarely get the credit they deserve as originators of the English and French languages).

[Jill<br><br>Jill (99)]

Yes - thanks - that's her!  I'll have to remember to look for her books next time I'm in France - although I do have quite a lot to get through at the moment.

[Judith]

[quote user="Jill"]

If that aspect of language interests you, i.e. origines, then try "Adventure in English" by Melvyn Bragg.  There is also a woman who wrote a book about the evolvement of French, but I can't think of her name. 

[/quote]

Jill, thanks.  I knew of Melvyn's book, just never got around to

reading it!  I might look at the Walter books, as quoted in a later

post, if I can ever find the time.  I do have a copy of "the life and

times of the English language" by Robert Claiborne, 1990, which is

where some of my knowledge comes from and which re-instigated  my

interest in the subject, but I admit to being a complete amateur on the

subject. 

[Wendy]

[quote user="chessfou"][quote]I would be interested in learning, but suspect I'd have even more memory problems with my French vocabulary if I did so.[/quote]

Well, if your French is reasonable and especially if you have a little Spanish, you should find it possible to make sense of simple Occitan - have a go at the tourist info signs on ancient monuments and you may also find that your local paper has a page of Occitan at least one day a week (e.g. Sunday's "Centre Presse" in Aveyron).
[/quote]

I live right on the border dividing Occitan 'France' and Catalan 'France' - those words would certainly gleen an interesting reaction from my neighbours on both sides...none of them consider 'Spanish' as being a part of either of their language. In fact, don't even MENTION 'Spanish' to the Catalonians here !

I recently had a guest stay here from Narbonne - he stated quite strongly he was a 'Cathar' and claimed all people native to Narbonne were so.

By the way I am directly descended from Philip III of France; his daughter Marguerite married Edward I of England (my 26th Great Grandfather) - she was his second wife after Eleanor of Castile died. I am descended from this French line [;-)]

You'd never know it eh...[:$] ?

[Just Katie]

No Jura, you would never know it.  The way he stormed Wales and Scotland, you seem far more gentle. [Www] [:D]

[Cat]

I'd keep quiet about that if I were you Jura, the French can be a bit rough on their nobility.  Look what happened to poor old Louis XVI in 1793 [:-))]

[Russethouse]

Jura, Wasn't Marguerite actually not Edwards choice of bride at all, her brother tricked him by promising two suitors the hand of her more attractive sister and then persuaded Edward to accept the younger sister ? So was it Thomas, Edmund or Eleanor that was your direct descendant ?

[woolybananasbrother]

Shhhhhhh, don't ask RH

In a previous life I was a slave building pyramids and used to "Walk Like and Egyptian".  (Still do, which proves my descent);

[welly]

Our property was agift from HenryII to his chief of Police, he then gave the land to the Cistercian Monks and they built the Monastry, Abbey at Aunay Sur Odon, and that ensured all his passed sins were forgiven and he would go to heaven...

Due the dense forest around the Abbey it was forgotten and  few knew of it's existance, which was good for the Monks who made several trips to the Uk to collect rents from the monastrys and churches they had built.  A great place to secure monies.

It therefore escaped  all the demolishings thru the ages,,, did'nt know it was there..

Thankfully it's in  fantastic condition, above the ground... as was  to a degree.. and TV's Time Team got excited when they found a replica layout of our property under the surface of the ground,  obviously built by these chaps,

Due to WWII some of the Abbey buildings did not survive, and sadly this place got a cheap makeover after the war, so we are repairing the job as it should have been done.. a lovely rewarding project..

Our headache is there is nothing on the net and nothing recorded as all, according to the records office.. all were lost during the war... unless someone out there happens to come across any documents in archives when hunting  we would love to know more...

Good ol Henry employed our ancestors whom  he sent to Devon to set up Mints, they were his most trusted advisors.