SaligoBay Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 How rude is this word in French? I've heard of people speaking "petit nègre" French, and today in Norma they were selling biscuits called "têtes de nègre". [:O] Or at least, that's what it said on the sign above, it didn't say it anywhere on the multi-lingual box! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="SaligoBay"]How rude is this word in French? I've heard of people speaking "petit nègre" French, andtoday in Norma they were selling biscuits called "têtes denègre". [:O] Or at least, that's what it said on the sign above, itdidn't say it anywhere on the multi-lingual box![/quote]I cannot think of any other circumstances when I would use the word!parler petit-nègre = pidgin Englishtête de nègre = sort of biscuit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Don't they write books for other people...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I think the word is rude, but suspect some French people use it.I wouldn't use the term 'noirrrrrree' either, like they say it round here. EG about a Jamaican-british woman who lived here "elle est trés Noirrrrrrrrre" Um yes, quite. I wouldn't say Noire in a normal tone either. After all we don't call people browns or yellows. I call myself European, not white. I prefer to use Africaine-Francaise (or the other way round), but then I don't know any African-French people here, (though I do help a student with his English who is, on line) and I'm not likely to bump into any, unless I accost someone in Saintes! It reminds me of Harlow in the very early 1980's in many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourangelle Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 well it can't be that bad, because there is a shop in the Part Dieu shopping centre called café au nègre. What I hear more and more and I find weird is people talking about des gens qui sont black.Tresco you would have to be really really careful calling somebody africain-français because a French person from La Réunion or similar would probably be really offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Let's just stick with Black and not worry about it!COLOURWhen I was born, I was black.When I grow up, I'm black.When I'm ill, I'm black.When I go out in the sun, I'm black.When I'm cold, I'm black.When I die, I'm black.But you -When you're born, you're pink.When you grow up, you're white.When you're ill, you're green.When you go out in the sun, you go red.When you're cold, you go blue.When you die, you're purple.And you have the nerve to call me coloured? - Malcom XI have a friend who hates being called coloured, she always retorts ' a tube of smarties are coloured!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Tresco you would have to be really really careful calling somebody africain-français because a French person from La Réunion or similar would probably be really offended (Tourangelle)Sorry yes you are quite right. As I said, I don't know anyone here, so the situation doesn't arise as it did in England where I worked and socialised with people, but I was and am very careful to try and use the terminology each person prefers to describe their own race/heritage, as you implied. That includes people who look a lot like me who call themselves as 'White' of course, and also people who call themselves 'Black' too. It doesn't bother me if people call me 'White', I just don't think of myself that way. Your comment was a point well worth making.Malcom X was a very very clever and important man. He would have been 80 a couple of weeks ago if he'd lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Someone once asked my daughter what colour she thought she was, after a long pause she said "beige?"SB, back to your question. I don't think that négre is an acceptable word to most french people (although it shocks french people lot less than the english translation would us) Strangely," négresse" seems more acceptable to most people.As christine animal said, négre is also a term for a ghost writer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="Mistral"]Someone once asked my daughter what colour she thought she was, after a long pause she said "beige?"SB, back to your question. I don't think that négre is an acceptable word to most french people (although it shocks french people lot less than the english translation would us) Strangely," négresse" seems more acceptable to most people.As christine animal said, négre is also a term for a ghost writer. [/quote]How I wished I'd been that witty when I was being called négresse at school!My mother, who was born and bred in Madagascar, used to call us (her 3 daughters) "métissées", but I gather this term is no longer acceptable...!I just say I am naturellement bronzée!Christine Animal is right about a ghostwriter being called un nègre. I'd totally forgotten about that. Funny how you tend to focus on PC !Interesting point of view about the word here (in French) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="Clair"][My mother, who was born and bred in Madagascar, used to call us (her 3 daughters) "métissées", but I gather this term is no longer acceptable...![/quote]Oh dear, isn't it all so difficult! I do hear "black" a lot, that's possibly in pole position, followed by "noir".But I also hear "métisse"! Even in Amel Bent's song, Ma Philosophie, here's the first verse......Je n'ai qu'une philosophieÊtre acceptée comme je suisMalgré tout ce qu'on me ditJe reste le poing levéPour le meilleur comme le pireJe suis métisse mais pas martyreJ'avance le coeur légerMais toujours le poing levéMy friend also uses it to describe her ex-husband, and it's not derogatory, she says she really really likes the métis "look". But that could just be her.I have no intentions of using "nègre", I was just a bit shocked to see it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missy Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 There is also 'nègre en chemise' a kind of chocolate cake with a white covering. I went to school at a C.E.S. right in the middle of a Z.U.P. (Zone à Urbaniser en Priorité) The population in these towerblocks was mostly North African, Senegalese, Portuguese, Vietnamese immigrants and never did I hear any one insulting someone else using the word 'nègre' but I did hear other words to describe them, with all these different nationalities it made for a very colourful and varied list!...and of course we ended up speaking 'p'tit nègre' 35 years ago between school friends, today they'd call it 'rap' I think ....Nègre syndrome is twin to the gollywog syndrom of UK... If any of you have 'Banania' drinking chocolate in your cupboards for your kids, you'll see what I mean... Whilst Robertson, under public opinion pressure have had to omit the gollywog off their advertising, packaging etc... I have not noticed Banania (or whoever owns it now) doing the same. In fact the merchandising of the Banania trademark is on the up. Found plates, bowls, tins etc... sporting the friendly smiling face, in just about every other department store/gift shop I went to when last in Paris (4 weeks ago) ... Imagine the revenue...If the word 'nègre' must be obliterated, the maker of the dark rum called 'Négrita' would have to rebrand itself....Imagine the cost... The latin for blackcurrant would have to be thought of again...Imagine the braincells colliding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Funny as I was recently talking with my 12 year old daughter about thissame subject. Her recent "taking" to 50 cent reminded us howthose in the rap life can use names for each other that those out ofthe rap life had better never use. We were also discussing howher friends in college have begun using the English/American term"black" when referring to people having black skin. I thoughtthat was really odd. I still don't know if that is consideredderogatory or not. Daughter tells me that noir is better thannegre, but neither are considered polite. So it leaves us goingback to referring to national heritage name - I guess - or simplyreferring to people by name only.... Very good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 When Richar Pryor died fairly recently I learnt that he was regarded as being the person who helped popularise the N word in terms of it's use by then young African Amreicans when referring to eachother. He was widely quoted as bitterly regretting that he was responsible for this, and gave very good reasons why. Pity the Rappers don't listen. I've seen TV prorammes in France where the term Black is used and got the impression it was deemed more acceptable by young people, and perhaps even 'cooler' than noir. I have never heard the term nègre used once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 [quote user="Lori"]We were also discussing how her friends in college have begun using the English/American term "black" when referring to people having black skin. I thought that was really odd. [/quote]"Un black" is everday usage, Lori. My experience in France has calmed me down about politically correct usage of these words. For the most part, it's not the words that count, it's the intention of the speaker that's important, and that's usually obvious whichever words they use.As already pointed out, a person "of colour" generally isn't, and I think it's a very silly term anyway. It is in fact relegating all those people to a big mass of "not-white". I'm sure I'm often non-PC on these matters because it's so difficult to keep up. For a while nigger was coming back into fashion within the American black community, apparently. I would still have problems using it though, didn't even enjoy writing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 For a while *** was coming back into fashion within the American black community, apparently. I would still have problems using it though, didn't even enjoy writing it! Looks like the forum software didn't either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jc Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Town called "Negrepelisse". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 I asked the other half (as my token french person) how he felt about the word. As far as he is concerned it is a technical term (along the lines of "negroid" ) and he would only bother to use it in terms such as "traite des négres" or "négritude". He doesn't see it at all as the insult it would be in english. I'd better add that he teachers hist/géo so he may have a different point of view to most french people. I decided not to remind him that his father (an unpleasant opinionated, arrogant man) tends to use the word négre quite a lot to (in my opinion) belittle black people. He uses "nana" in the same way to talk about women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 I supect that I am a bit older than some of you discussing this, but I remember when I was younger how exotic the word negress sounded. It conjured up for me proud strong women sort of like a lioness, even today and though I woud never use it because it would cause offence, the image I had as a little girl of that word will stay with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 [quote user="beryl"]I supect that I am a bit older than some of you discussing this, but I remember when I was younger how exotic the word negress sounded. It conjured up for me proud strong women sort of like a lioness, even today and though I woud never use it because it would cause offence, the image I had as a little girl of that word will stay with me.[/quote][:^)] Well, at the receiving end, it felt, as it was meant, as an insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 To me, in the end, calling some people by a colour ('black', 'white' etc) makes no sense. I inderstand why 'black' became more accepted than 'coloured' but in the end, black is still just a colour.It is so reductive, but also so very false, because no one is really 'Black' and no one is really 'white'.I said before, no one calls people 'yellows', 'browns', 'light browns', (or 'beiges', or 'pinks', or 'pale pinks.'...)That's why I prefer to not use these terms. They are not 'real'. That's why I prefer to use African (and I think that is the 'word' that Beryl could now easily get used to substituting for the one she was brought up with).That's my view. It goes down badly everywhere I go, but that is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 [quote user="Clair"][quote user="beryl"]I supect that I am a bit older than some of you discussing this, but I remember when I was younger how exotic the word negress sounded. It conjured up for me proud strong women sort of like a lioness, even today and though I woud never use it because it would cause offence, the image I had as a little girl of that word will stay with me.[/quote][:^)] Well, at the receiving end, it felt, as it was meant, as an insult.[/quote]I just want to clarify that I don't use that word and would never knowingly use any term that would cause offence . I think, in the context it was used at my school in the 50s, it was not meant as a derogatory term, but of course, I can see how it does cause offence. I can remember that program ' Love thy neighbour' which was on in the early 70s and unlike every other 'comedy' from the 70s it has not been repeated because it is now regarded (correctly) as totally inapproriate. Thankfully, people are more respectful of colour and culture, though still much needs improving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Actually, Tresco, my husband - who is Indian and a very attractive shade of brown! - does occasionally call me pink. As in 'you pinkies all look the same to me!' Of course it is joke - but it is amazing how horrified and embarrassed people are when he and his cousin make - 'racist' remarks. For example, cousin - whose wife like me is English - recently had new baby - husband peered at it and said 'Blimey boy, it's pink won't you worry what the neighbours will think.' Our assembled friends, all English and white looked nervous and didn't know whether to laugh or not. For us - like Clair I'm sure - racism is a sad fact of life and it doesn't matter what words people use it is, as SB says, the intent behind them that is unkind. My dad is Irish and many of his old workmates call him Paddy - even though he is Jim - but that is not the same as someone calling him a 'thick paddy'. If you call someone African and they are not it may equally offend/irritate them. Our French neighbour insists that Mike is 'Hindou' however many times he points out that a. he was brought up in London, and b even when his family lived in India thay were catholics. Neighbour insists that Indians come from North America - we cannot convince him that Hindu is a religion not a nationality.I personally don't think 'nègre' is particularly attractive, but have to say have found French not very politically correct any way. However, if people are not being unkind I don't see it matters too much the words used. Don't think myself that black coffee or 'petit nègre' bisuits should be eliminated from our vocabulary, it certainly won't change the way people act - they will find new 'insulting' words if that is what they really want to do.Maggi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Ah yes Love they neighbour. The irony of it was that the white (sorry Pink) mans ignorance always backfired on him. Alf Garnet could also be put into the same category. I was a very young child then and remember cringing at these characters views of the ethnic minorities. I have an assortment of friends in all shades, sizes and sexual orientation. I enjoy sharing and learning from our differences. A very good muslim friend of mine came into Notre Dame cathedral with me. There was beautiful music playing and she joined a queue and lit a candle for a family member. When we met outside her eyes were watery (perhaps after the lovely music and the whole ambience of the place) she said there was only one god and her prayer would be received whether it was from her telephone or the 'neighbours'. Whether or not one is religious I was very touched by this girls open attitude to faith and culture. I can honestly say I am not as advanced as her to visit a mosque and do the same but I would feel humbled to those who could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangur Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negritude is an interesting intro to any discussion of race and words in France. There's some really good writing from the French Carribbean in particular that deals with the issue of race and how France treats its non-white citizens and the impact of language on perceptions. Some French writers like Franz Fanon and Aime Caesar from Martinique were really influental in discussions about race and colonialism. Like others said, it's often the intent behind the words that's important. I might refer to myself as a Paddy, and might take no offence at some friends saying it, but it can also be a term of abuse in England, depending on the intent. I'm sure it's the exact same for other descriptions of race and ethnicity, in any language and it's often a subjective opinion on whether or not it was meant as an insult.As an aside, in Irish, the term for black people is "daoine gorm," or the blue people, which perhaps emphasises the ridiculousness of attributing colours to humans. Black people in Gaelic refers to a type of malevolent fairy apparently.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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