ctc Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 HiWould you please advise your recommendations for free on-line translation websites and also translation CD Roms we could purchase to download to our computer. We need to be able to write letters in French and also to translate from French to English.Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 For English to French I would not recommend any of them. I have tried Systran Professional and also some free online stuff and I have always found their translations are error-ridden except for the shortest and simplest of phrases that you could do yourself from a decent dictionary. If it's an important letter I do the best I can myself and then get a French friend to check it. I suppose you could do the same with a free online translator as long as you didn't mind the resulting laughter.[:)]French to English I guess doesn't matter so much as it's for your own consumption.PhilPS And I know my French website version is not perfect. Feel free to laugh!PPS I do recommend the Larousse Chambers full size dictionary - the one for a sturdy bookshelf rather than a pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarrot Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 It depends on how much time you have. For what I do, Systran is okay (even the free version), but you need several passes. Here's my system, English to French. An A4 letter will take you one whole interesting morning! I should add I can read French reasonably well and I'm not sure whether it would work if I couldn't do that. Sketch it out in short "French-like" sentences (yes, I know French sentences are typically not short, but Systran will invariably get the syntax wrong if the sentence is complex). Shove it through Systran, English-French. Copy the result to WORD with language set to French, and spelling and grammar switched on. That will greatly improve spelling and get agreement etc much better. BTW, WORD seems to have a hang-up about the passive, and is usually wrong, particularly in French. Now, put the result through Systran as French-English. This should identify areas where the French simply doesn't work. Then, either change the French directly or simplify the English and go round again. Note, you end up with written French that is okay and will certainly be understood, but will be read as "translated English" to a native speaker. It depends on what you want to achieve. Unless you know a lot of French you will never write it convincingly, but if you simply want to get a message over to someone it's good enough. And in some cases earnest effort has its own reward, even if the result seems a bit quaint. Shameless use of existing model letters (lots available on the web) is a help. Obviously, don't try it in letters to the Notaire with your life's savings hanging on it. AK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 One of the problems is that all of these systems are so literal. Unless you know a bit of the language it's hard to know if what you have produced is nonsense or not.For example, here is Altavista's Babelfish translation of: 'We are hoping to open a bed and breakfast business.''Nous espérons ouvrir des affaires de lit et de petit déjeuner.'I'm not sure a Frenchman or woman would know what that was supposed to mean.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarrot Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I don't have it with me, but I wonder what Systran would do with 'Nous espérons ouvrir des affaires de lit et de petit déjeuner.' ? The test of my system is would it be bad enough English to make you stop and think. My guess is it would come up with something a bit strange.But as I said, the system only works if you can read pretty well, but are uncertain about writing (and that's the usual case). But you're quite right - some translation software makes you wince. AK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Surely as it made a bog of 'bed & breakfast' you would go back in again using 'chambre d'hote' and see how that comes out. You have to be aware of what you are asking it to translate and whether or not the French phrase would be a literal translation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cjlaws Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Is there some reason for your thinking that you can obtain these services and skills without training or payment? Do you supply your own services for free?Don't you think that if you need "to write letters in French and also to translate from French to English", that you should either learn French or employ a professional translator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 The most accurate online translator I've found is at www.reverso.com but, because the online version is free, the constraint is the amount of text which can be dealt with at each hit. And I seem to remember the site limits users to 3 or 4 hits before forcing you to exit and go in again. Which, of course, encourages you to buy the full package - Softissimo - for installation on your pc/s. I bought it about a year ago and I'm impressed with it. As someone said earlier, it is necessary to keep the English sentence simple and ideally, if you're going English to French, construct the English sentence in a French format. [:)] But in general, it is very helpful particularly when paired with improving language skills.But, as I think CJLaws (unnecessarily snittily imo) suggests, if you have anything complex to convert from English to French, you should find yourself a professional translator - ideally native French speaker. Particularly if you are putting in writing something which you may want to enforce or prove at a later date - with artisans, for example. In that situation, clarity and a lack of ambiguity would be important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 [quote user="catalpa"]But, as I think CJLaws (unnecessarily snittily imo) suggests, if you have anything complex to convert from English to French, you should find yourself a professional translator - ideally native French speaker. [/quote]You could always employ CJLaws - occupation teacher/translator - but obviously it won't be free, you pay for what you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarrot Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 I tried my system with reverso (nice free software, thank-you for the link) on the bed and breakfast sentence. A couple of passes and you arrive at:Nous espérons ouvrir l'affaire de chambre avec petit déjeunerHmmm. But that "avec" is clever. These things are getting better.Re the advice to "learn French", it's not all-or-none, and even when you have "learned French" (whatever that means) it's seriously unlikely that you'll be able to write like a native. Very few professional translators manage that working outside their mother tongue. Using translation software for non-critical things - and taking your time about it - is a good way of improving writing skills. And it's quite entertaining. AK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali-cat Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 I've mentioned the folks on this forum before - & have always found them more than helpful. I've seen full University Thesis being posted to members for checking & I'm sure someone on here would be more than happy to help. I've tried to help out the odd French person with English phrases - but worry they are now talking, with a few Northern Ireland expressions & confusing everyone!! http://forum.wordreference.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cjlaws Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 [quote user="Cassis"][quote user="catalpa"] But, as I think CJLaws (unnecessarily snittily imo) suggests, if you have anything complex to convert from English to French, you should find yourself a professional translator - ideally native French speaker. [/quote]You could always employ CJLaws - occupation teacher/translator - but obviously it won't be free, you pay for what you get.[/quote][:)] Well no, actually, since I teach English and translate French-English. English is my mother tongue, and I believe that all translation must be done into the mother tongue. Sorry if I seem snitty (whatever that is), but, yes you pay for what you get. [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Snitty means grouchy or moody. I do find that emails and posts on forums can come across in a way that may not have been the original intention of the sender - yours did come across a bit grouchy (though I wasn't the one to say it).[6]Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Translator Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 [quote user="Cassis"]One of the problems is that all of these systems are so literal. Unless you know a bit of the language it's hard to know if what you have produced is nonsense or not.For example, here is Altavista's Babelfish translation of: 'We are hoping to open a bed and breakfast business.''Nous espérons ouvrir des affaires de lit et de petit déjeuner.'I'm not sure a Frenchman or woman would know what that was supposed to mean.Phil[/quote]Some saythat a good (and amusing) test for a free online translator is to run thetranslation back through it again, back into the source language.Here's what http://babelfish.altavista.com did with the above:"We hope to open businesses of bed and breakfast" Which seems quitegood. However the French translation is not as good as the retranslation intoEnglish. This is because in English we are familiar the collocation "bed andbreakfast" whereas "lit et petit déjeuner" in French makes aboutas much sense as "pillow and breakfast" or "pyjamas andbreakfast" or any other word you want to use to invoke the idea ofsleeping in a room. On top of this "des affaires de lit" could beread in French to mean "bed affairs" which might get you a completelydifferent clientele to the expected one.You might get clients ringing to book “a bed affair with breakfast!!”- “For howmany?” ...........Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I'm not sure whether we would have to charge extra or give a discount for that arrangement!Another interesting test along those lines is to run it through another language before coming back to English.We are hoping to open a bed and breakfast business.1. Nous espérons ouvrir des affaires de lit et de petit déjeuner.2. Ελπίζουμε να ανοίξουμε επιχειρήσεις του κρεβατιού και του μικρούγεύματος.3. We hope to open enterprises of bed and small dinner.Marvellous. I've just noticed that Babelfish is powered by Systran, by the way. I used Systran myself until my French became good enough to realise what a bullix it made of things. The software CD now dangles from a fishing line in the garden - it makes a better bird scarer than a translator.phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 I don't know about having to translate only into the mother tongue; my French partner speaks and writes english better than me... Hmmmmm. Actually she has just informed me that she feels more comfortable translating english into french - so there you go! [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 How do you handle a translation 'exercise' when the Alliance Francaisteacher corrects something that has been written by a French colleague( yes I know I was cheating doing my homework that way!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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