Putting nouns and adjectives in the right order

[Mark]

Why is it 'chaud lapin' but 'lanterne rouge'?  Very, very basic question I'm sure, but I've never worked out what, if anything, determines the order of the noun and adjective.  (sorry about the rather odd examples!).  Actually, a better example may be chaud lapin and plat chaud.

[Cat]

I always wondered about that too, until my french teacher explained the rules.

If an adjective denotes

* beauty (but only "positive" beauty, not degree of ugliness)

* size

* age

then it goes before the noun, otherwise it follows the noun.

So, une belle dame, but une dame moche

Une petite maison, but une maison blanche

Un vieil chien, but un chien sauvage.

The only real exception to this (that I know of) is when using language to extoll the virtues of something, as in advertising, when the adjectives are often put before the noun for emphasis.

Not sure where that leaves your hot bunny though [:$]

 

 

[Christine Animal]

I never knew all that, thanks Cathy !

[Cat]

Maybe not Christine, but I bet you knew about Mr Vanderstramp before I did [:)]

Actually, when I asked my French fella about the positioning of nouns and adjectives, he wasn't able to describe the rule either.  I guess it must be something that a lot of French people just know, but without knowing why.

 

 

[Mark]

Wonderful, thanks Cathy.  Has this not come up before then?  It's been troubling me for ages![8-)]

[Mark]

Oh, and I nicked the hot bunny from another thread, reportedly meaning sex maniac.  I hope Clair isn't just on a huge wind-up with some of the more gullible among us Anglos.  'Re-bonjour' surely isn't right, is it? [8-)]

[Cassis]

Re-bonjour is fine - say it to anyone you've already said bonjour to that day.  Don't say bonjour to the same person twice in the day as they will think you don't remember having met them and having said it the first time (bit of a no-no not to remember having already greeted someone bonjour).  And the hot bunny is indeed a sex maniac.

[Christine Animal]

You are scratching your head Mark, but so am I.  Have I missed something?

Cathy, who is Mr. Vanderstramp?

Mark, don't know where you got re-bonjour from, but it is often said when you see someone or speak to them on the phone for the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth.........etc. time in the same day.

 

Edit: sorry, Cassis came in between, sandwiched comme une sauccisse, and I hadn't seen it.

[Cassis]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

Edit: sorry, Cassis came in between, sandwiched comme une sauccisse, and I hadn't seen it.

[/quote]

I beg your pardon?  Careful what you say!

[Christine Animal]

Rebonjour Phil   [:)]

 

[Cat]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

You are scratching your head Mark, but so am I.  Have I missed something?

Cathy, who is Mr. Vanderstramp?

[/quote]

I think he's better known as one half of the couple, Dr & Mrs Vandertramp?  The mnemonic for the verbs that use être rather than avoir in the passé composé.

Devenir Revenir Monter Rester Sortir Venir Aller Naître Descendre Entrer Retourner Tomber Rentrer Arriver Mourir Partir

 

 

[Christine Animal]

Well, what a couple !  I'd never heard of them before either Cathy   [:P]   I think they are still together...

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~gezundha/sherbrooke/11.html

 

[Loiseau]

[quote user="Cat 46"]

...If an adjective denotes
* beauty (but only "positive" beauty, not degree of ugliness); * size; * age
then it goes before the noun, otherwise it follows the noun....

[/quote]

 

How fascinating, Cat 46!  And I like the mnemonic for the list of verbs - though it's a bit confusing that they call themselves "VandertRamp", when the list shows VandertampP (one R less, and one P more)!
For the verbs conjugated with être I seem to remember learning them as opposites (naitre/mourir, monter/descendre, venir/partir etc - though I don't think that works for all, does it?  Also recall being told that they were all verbs of movement (don't know about "devenir" though).

Re the word order:  we were taught the subtle difference between "un homme pauvre" and "un pauvre homme";
are there any more like that?
And I can't help throwing in: "C'est bonnet blanc et blanc bonnet" !

Angela

[Juswundrin]

"Re the word order: we were taught the subtle difference between "un homme pauvre" and "un pauvre homme";

are there any more like that?"

At the risk of getting this wrong just as a native speaker answers...

propre (own/clean)

and

ancien (ancient/former)

do the same thing, don't they?

[Dick Smith]

Is it also done for stylistic reasons, as it is in English? I can't remember reading it that way in French, but my French reading tends towards the simple.

[DZ]

[quote user="Juswundrin"]"Re the word order: we were taught the subtle difference between "un homme pauvre" and "un pauvre homme"; are there any more like that?" At the risk of getting this wrong just as a native speaker answers... propre (own/clean) and ancien (ancient/former) do the same thing, don't they?[/quote]

The following adjectives also behave in a similar fashion:

cher (dear and expensive: cher ami; un livre cher)

certain (sure and certain: un fait certain; un certain "je ne sais quoi")

même (same and itself: la même chose; cet homme même)

.

[Catalpa]

I encountered the rebonjour a few weeks ago from an 75-year-old who isn't renowned for her up-to-date-ness. So I assume it's been around for some time. Very useful though. As is the rest of this thread... thank you. [:)]

[Cassis]

[quote user="Juswundrin"]"Re the word order: we were taught the subtle difference between "un homme pauvre" and "un pauvre homme";

are there any more like that?[/quote]

How about 'un grand homme' and 'un homme grand'?

[Lou]

My French colleague greets me for the second, third etc time in a day

simply with "Re" or even "re re" but no bonjour!  Other

abbreviations I have picked up - "impec" for impeccable, "bon ap" for

bon appetit or bon apres-midi.........................some days I feel

all those years learning "proper" French at University were a bit of a

waste of time..........

Lou

PS all my colleagues say "bye bye" when taking their leave

[Christine Animal]

D'ac...

[Cassis]

Petit déj

A plus

the list could go on for ever!

[Ronan]

I'd also add that the meaning changes when the adjective is in front of the noun. When it is behind, it just qualifies the noun ("une maison petite" is just a house that is small); when it is in front, it changes the noun, the adjective becomes "the essence" of the noun.

This goes to the extend where the group adjective+noun takes a meaning of its own:

un grand homme

un petit-déjeuner

un chaud lapin

I'm a french native speaker so my gammar is way behind most of yours here but I have more "feel" for the language, though most of the time it is impossible for me to explain stuff (which frustrates my partner a lot!) :-)

[WJT]

Hi Ronan, very interesting comments as are some of the others, it is really very helpful to me being somewhat of a beginner. In the example you give of "une maison petite" how would the meaning change in "une petite maison"?

As you can see, I have a long way to go [:(]

[Christine Animal]

Ronan, I'm not so hot on the grammar terms either, but more from hearing and more or less knowing when it sounds right.

Could you give an example of when it is possible to say a "maison petite" in a sentence as it doesn't seem to sound right.

Or is it an abbreviation of "une maison qui est petite" ?

 

[Loiseau]

[quote user="Cat 46"]

...If an adjective denotes

* beauty (but only "positive" beauty, not degree of ugliness)

* size

* age

then it goes before the noun, otherwise it follows the noun.

[/quote]

 

I think the answer is here (above), Christine.  I was intrigued to learn of this rule, which I had never come across before...

Angela