Teaching 2 levels of English

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Bones"] You don't need to be a trained teacher to identify differing levels of ability, in fact adults will let you know themselves and the original poster already had this problem identified. Do you disagree with any of this?
 


[/quote]

I've been offended by people with a PhD in offending, Bones. You'll have to try harder if that's your aim.[:D]. I do, however, disagree very strongly with your comment above. If someone (adult or otherwise) is coming to language lessons, it's a pretty safe bet that they don't already have a grasp of the language. If so, how do they know how much they do or don't know??? If they're that b*** clever in the first place, they could easily teach themselves.[;-)]. I don't teach children, never have. I do, however, teach languages to adults, every day. If I had a quid for every time an adult has told me what level they're at and been correct, I'd be selling the Big Issue by now. I could go into endless boring detail, but what's the point. Dick could have answered the OP's question with a slightly fuller request for more info, but IMHO that's about all he did "wrong".

Anyway, to you, it's only "the teaching of a few adults a bit of English". To me it's how I earn a living. Piece of cake, money for old rope. Anyone could do it. Although it's best if you're an egomaniacal tosspot[;-)]

[Dick Smith]

Bones - I'm really not interested in arguing with you, even if you want to come back and start it off again. It's clear that, whatever your profession, you don't feel any problem with dishonestly describing yourself as something when you aren't trained, and of course, as you say, teaching isn't important.

Let me ask you - did you teach yourself to read? To do mathematics? To understand science?  If not, you might be in a position to be grateful for the training of those who taught you. Pity they never taught you to avoid arrogance.

[Bones]

Dick: I didn't say teaching was unimportant, I implied that teacher training is nowhere near as important as medical training and that - certainly at some levels/subjects - a good 'natural' teacher would be the equal of a poor (not poorly) trained one.

Betty: In my initial post I pointed out that my own partner teaches adults English; though according to Dick's criteria I think she should seek suggestions on how exactly she should introduce herself at dinner parties - what with her not being trained (perhaps imposter-teacher?). I can only go off what my partner tells me about her students and they do indeed have strong opinions on their individual levels of ability, you have a different experience, fantastic.

Dick, the vast majority of my teachers have been shockingly poor at their jobs and not very likeable folk. The few good teachers I have been taught by were given exactly the same training as their useless peers: what do you want me to say? It's not arrogance it's simple honesty, my subjective opinion needn't trouble you.

As for my learning, well I was effectively allowed to opt out of maths aged ten and my mediocre english skills were honed only after leaving school. What little science I know comes from reading Bill Bailey. I taught myself guitar too, but I doubt I could diagnose my own medical problems.

If I were to clarify my opinions on the importance of teacher training (apologies to the author of the thread), I'd have to say that all the training in the world cannot bless you with charisma, empathy, 'people skills' and enthusiasm for the actual act of teaching.

I hope that answers your questions, Dick, you've certainly answered mine.

[Dick Smith]

And your last line has answered mine.

What do you do for a living, Bones?

[loella]

I came 'online' this morning to post an 'update' to let you all know how yesterdays first class went only to discover that you all seem to have been involved in a little 'war' between yourselves...oh dear dear....thought that should have been left in the classroom!!!

Seriously though, had some new faces, some victoria sponge and a cup of tea...2 groups which divided really well and by the end of the 2 hour session they all left reluctantly,which would suggest that they'll come back next week hopefuly for more of the same...(only on the condition that they bring the cake next time!)

I only ever meant this post to be about encouraging others to do a bit of the same and spread a little 'entente cordial' in their local commune...they have all known from the outset that I was never a trained teacher.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Annie - pleased it all went well. It sounds to me as if you are achieving something there.

Do not be concerned if sometimes it appears that people are knocking

lumps out of each other: mostly it is just because we enjoy an

arguement. This forum allows more latitude for that sort of thing than

many others, as you may have gathered, which is one of the reasons why

it could be regarded as the most successful of the genre.

[Bones]

Annie, sorry Miss! (It was all Dick's fault).

Dick, I know you don't want to argue, so I'm going to save you from yourself and simply say [:P]

[Dick Smith]

OK Bones, that's mature. You start an argument (quite unnecessarily) and then try to play the innocent peacemaker. It's all MY fault. Ha ha. It was all a joke, yes?

Did you ever answer the question about what you do for a living? You've had a go at the teachers, now put yourself up in the same way - not scared of that, are you?

[Bones]

Not at all Dickey!

I find it quite amusing that you are ticking all the right boxes, but as I say that's my limited subjective opinion and you should care less: anyone else reading this thread will be already aware that I am an "arrogant" and "snide" individual - your virtual persona is quite safe!

To answer your question I am unemployed.

You too are being very childish Dick, so I'll reply in kind as it's obviously what you desire.

You've spotted my transparent jokey efforts to lay the blame on you - well the whole point was to be transparent to the point where anybody (trained or otherwise) would infer that it was an olive branch; self mocking if anything.

You, on the other hand, posted something so transparently argumentative earlier it was laughable, I didn't jump on it because I'm not a bully, but all things being fair - here's the gist:

"I don't want to argue with you Bones even if you do choose to return and pick up on my comments (all evidence to the contrary): now I'm going to ask a rhetorical question that completely contradicts whatever you have said so far (how sophisticated and mature!) p.s. you're arrogant".

Dick, people like us are never going to get along. If it suits your needs to have me painted as both instigator and loser of this pointless debate, well I think you'll find my previous post was an attempt to provide you with just such an outcome. As for your 'innocent peacemaker' tag -- it takes two to tango and two to leave the floor.

You stay and dance if you like pal - I think I've seen enough.

[Dick Smith]

Bonesy old love - I think that with your balanced attitude - a chip on each shoulder - you are not going to get along with many people.

Actually I've always felt that being snide and then claiming it was all a joke (because we are too stupid to keep up with your advanced sense of humour no doubt) is the classic action of a bully.

Perhaps all those teachers who failed you so badly just weren't up to making silk purses?

[Bones]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

Perhaps all those teachers who failed you so badly just weren't up to making silk purses?

[/quote]

Interesting philosophy for a teacher to hold. Care to elaborate?

[Dick Smith]

Nope. Don't understand your point. Do you know what 'philosophy' means?

[cooperlola]

Right lads, time to get your toys back in the pram I think! 

Seriously, my friend and I nip down to the local twinning group once a month and help them brush up their English.  There's no doubt that they appreciate it and get something out of the whole exercise.  However, I'm sure that - as with everything - if we had proper training as teachers, we would be better at it and our pupils would learn even more. 

Whatever your profession, if you spent a long time being trained, and are qualified and experienced, it can be a bit galling to think that the world at large has the "anybody can do it" attitude when you know there's so much more than just "instinct" involved.  I have a marketing background and spent my entire working life defending my profession to those who thought anybody could just do it.  Of course they can do some of it, and many of them quite well, but it's insulting when people just rubbish years of study and experience as unnecessary.

I'm sure that Annie's pupils, and our twinning group, know they are not getting professional help - if that was what they wanted, and could afford, they would seek it.  But they are learning something and are better off than they would be if they had nothing at all, and everybody is enjoying the process.  More power to Annie's elbow, I say.

And yes, Dick, I know I've started a few sentences with prepositions!

(the study of the fudamental nature of knowledge, reality and existence, btw.)

[Bones]

You understand all to well Dick; no surprise to see you resorting to personal insults yet again.

Those who can't - teach. Those who can't teach, blame their students.

The former sentiment is, of course, rather silly. I think the later is a fair reflection of some teachers, hopefuly not too many, that might glibly write off their own professional failure thus:

"My philosophy is that you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear".

Any clearer now?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Bones"]

"My philosophy is that you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear".

[/quote]

Perhaps not, but one can make an interesting novelty lugage tag.

Teachers do seem to be a favourite target on which to heap opprobrium

for all the ills of society, but now having had a glimpse of what they

actually do all day I cannot join in. I neither would nor could do the

job full time because I would be arrested in short order for

bludgeoning a pupil senseless with a chair leg. I can only assume that

blackboards were removed from classrooms not because white boards were

better but, in fact, to remove a tempting projectile from the reach of

teaching staff.

I had one "untrained" teacher - a left over from WW2, a period when

pretty much anyone could be an acceptable teacher in some parts of the

country. No one ever saw fit to remove him from his post in 1945 and

his having been a teacher was seen as qualification for him to continue

to being so. His only actual qualification for teaching biology was

school certificate and a passion for sweet peas - I seem to recall him

being something of a recognised expert in the field. Nonetheless, with

a well behaved class he could perform miracles at "O" level, but where

his lack of actual training became obvious was when things got rowdy.

He would very quickly resort to hurling black board rubbers (a stock of

which he kept behind his desk for such eventuality) and slippering

anything that moved. Call me a namby-pamby bleeding heart liberal if

you wish, but I never thought that violence was any way to run an

education.

[nimportequoi]

[quote user="Jon D"]

Teachers do seem to be a favourite target on which to heap opprobrium

for all the ills of society, but now having had a glimpse of what they

actually do all day I cannot join in.

[/quote]

Sorry this is a little off topic, but it is very easy for people (parents in particular) to criticise teachers whilst ignoring any responsibility they have in the upbringing of their offspring. My parents were both teachers and tried desperately to put me off joining the profession. They both enjoyed the actual teaching, but it was the other things, particularly the parental interference, which they disliked. My father was head of Biology, quite a strict teacher and not very politically correct, but I think quite good and well respected - one of his ex pupils is head of the BBC's Natural History Unit, so he manage to inspire at least one pupil. I remember on occasion myself and my brother went on one of his school trips to the Natural History Museum and on the way the coach picked up pupils, who had been instructed by my Dad to wear school uniform for the outing. One of the pupils was at a bus stop wearing jeans and a bright stripy jumper, so my Dad told the bus driver not to stop and left Angus there on his own. I don't think he would be able to do that now - Angus was black too, which may have made the matter even more serious. Yes, there are some bad teachers, but if students have absolutely no motivation whatsoever, it is very difficult to teach them anything.

[Bones]

I suppose it's down to whether you're punishing the kid for the parent's neglect. Don't get me started on parents. [:-))]