Pads is confused again

[Pads]

I know it dos'nt take much...

I think this is a misunderstanding ( on my behalf ) rather than any one being right or wrong....

On the subject of some of ... any of ..

I was told yesterday that

some of you use

de l' ( infront of vowels or H)

de la (fem)

du ( masc)

des (plural)

and any of

de

d'

now I was told from day one of starting french that they were both the same and the..

de / d' were only used when there was a quantity like one kilo of onions

and de for negatives ...

So why has any of changed .... ??

Looking in my grammer books and dictionary I see my first Idea is correct ...

But as I have a french teacher who is french Im sure there must be a good reason for her to say de/d' for any ....

Wish I knew what it was ...

Any of you know ?

Sorry if this is garbled but I tried to explain best I could ....

[Pads]

Just to add ...I wasnt the only one to be confused by this , I noticed everyone's head in my class snapped up and lower jaws dropped , when she said this ...so I did ask for a repeat of what she said and she said the same thing ...we all them looked at each other but no one else said any thing ...so it was left at that ....

[woolybanana]

Sounds like a bloody awful teacher!

[Chancer]

I am unclear from your posting what you mean by any of , can you give some examples of what your new teacher is teaching you to say please?

[Pads]

Do you have any beer ...I would use de la

But from what she said wednesday it would seem de would be used ...

But I have spoken tonight to a class mate who had already spoken to another class mate who thinks she was distracted from saying she meant in the negative

eg you dont have any beer in which case it would be de

I did think this my self so its probally what happened ...I hope

So final check .... some and any are the same arnt they ??

[Christine Animal]

Hope I'm correct here.

Un bout d'orange, is a bit of orange.

De l'orange is some orange.

 

Is that what you're getting at Pads?

 

[DerekJ]

Don't know if this helps? I think I need to re-read it as I'm still confused.

[Pads]

Christine I have got to a point where I dont know any more ... its the any of that she has thrown me with ?? as she says its different from some of ...but I always thought they were the same.

Thanks Derek

[NormanH]

1) In English we say 'some' in postive statements, such as 'I have some books '

We use 'any' with negatives and questions  ' I haven't seen any books about that ' 'Have you any books about..'

French doesn't quite work in the same way.

For 'some' (or 'any'  in questions) French uses :

de l' ( infront of vowels or H)

de la (fem)

du ( masc)

des (plural)

as you stated.

For 'any' in negatives French uses 'de' when the sense is none (not any) i.e quantity

'je n'ai pas de carottes ' I haven't any carrots

 but keeps the others when it is about the quality or nature of what is being talked about

'Ce n'est pas de la soie'  (it's not silk)

This is the basic rule

2)  A more subtle complication is that they all become just 'de' when

there is an adjective between them and the noun that qualifies  the noun

'Il faut prendre de grandes précautions '

There are exceptions to this in that there are some set phrases which don't change

'des jeunes filles' 'des bons mot' ' des petits pain'

3) Sometimes du de la etc doesn't mean some or any

'de la' etc can mean 'of the' or 'about'  in the sense that we weren't talking about the visitors (it doesn't mean some or any here)

'On ne parlait pas des visiteurs'

[Richard51]

Thanks Norman. That is a really helpful explanation.

[Chancer]

Great explanation Norman [:D]

I think in general I get it right in speech as I tend to mimic and am always re-assessing my understanding of things when listening to the paroles on the television.

Its when I come to write these things that the doubt creeps in, I did learn a lot if not all that you posted in my formal lessons but hving no knowledge of grammatical terms thanks to my dreadfull English education I really could not understand what I was being taught.

Pads.

It sounds like your teacher may be like the worst one that I had, the only qualification she had was being a native speaker, unable to explain the grammatical reasons and nuances like Norman did and lacking the training/skills to teach which in itself is yet another metier.

[Alan Zoff]

Norman, that's the best clarification of this subject that I have seen anywhere. At last I understand. (And thanks, Pads, for posting the question.)

[Pads]

Thanks Norman and everyone for your help.. I am now happy that I pretty much understand ... Now for the next problem....!!

[Patf]

Good for you Pads, it's a bit hard to understand. But I could never remember all that.[8-)]

[Richard51]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Pads.

It sounds like your teacher may be like the worst one that I had, the only qualification she had was being a native speaker, unable to explain the grammatical reasons and nuances like Norman did and lacking the training/skills to teach which in itself is yet another metier.

[/quote]

I think it's been discussed on here before - whether having a native speaker as a teacher is always better.  Personally I think you cannot learn a language without being able to listen to the native voice and both understand and mimic the accent.  However, unless they have a very good grasp of the rules of grammar in both their native language and yours - they (and you) will struggle.  We had private lessons (expensive but really worthwhile) with a non native French speaker - who had a thorough understanding of both English and French grammar and linguistics and word origins / meanings.  For us it was hugely helpful.  The ability of the teacher to break the language down and compare / contrast with English meant we understood more in a few weeks with him that we had throughout our entire secondary education language lessons (which, for me, wasn't much!).  Nevertheless, converting this knowledge to real conversations 'in situe' definitely improved when we could listen and talk to a native speaker.

Mrs R51

PS Thanks Pads for asking the question.  You're the sort of student everyone loves - the one that admits to needing the explanation that everyone else in the classroom wants- but is too timid to ask for!

[Judith]

PS Thanks Pads for asking the question.  You're the sort of student

everyone loves - the one that admits to needing the explanation that

everyone else in the classroom wants- but is too timid to ask for!

Indeed, well done, Pads, and thank you NormanH.

I'm not sure that I could easily get it right in spite of having both good English and French grammar, but when you see the explanation given in the web site earlier in the thread is is any wonder we don't get it right .....  I do sometimes think that if there is a complicated way to do it the French will do it the most difficult way - be it in language or activity.

[cooperlola]

The trick, Pads, is to try not to translate these kinds of words at all, but to learn to use them as a French person does - not easy!  IMHO, it is all fine and dandy to learn verbs and nouns and their translations but pronouns, participles, articles etc are really best understood in context.  It's too easy to say that de means of and a (with a grave accent)  means to and it's something that less-than-skilled teachers tend to do which, to my mind, is a cop-out and, what is more, leads to confusion once one starts to get into a language and its structure rather more deeply.  It's the reason why I could never teach - it's really tough to explain these things well, as Norman has done.

[NormanH]

You are quite right. Grammar rules are a description, not a prescription.

Much better to learn as Chancer does, by hearing and repeating and checking.

[Chancer]

Yeahbut nobut yeahbut, thats ow i lernt de english innit, nowotimeen! [:P]

[Loiseau]

At school, to help remember when "de" was to be employed (instead of du, de la, de l' or des), we used to have to chant in unison:

"After a negative,

before an adjective or

after any measure or quantity."

It has served me well through the years, Pads, and maybe it'd be helpful to you.

so:

Je n'ai pas DE pommes;

Tu as DE beaux yeux;

Nous avons eu beaucoup DE pluie cette semaine.

Angela

[mint]

Angela, that is a wonderful mnemonic. Thank you very much.

I am often envious of people who'd studied French at a young age but, there again, I came to live in France in order to "force" myself (and OH) to get to grips with a different culture and language so as to keep ze leetle grey cells from atrophy.

I'm good with after a negative and also after any measure or quantity but I forget the adjective bit. Hah, when I get back to French class, I can show off to the classmates and amaze the long-suffering teacher!

[Loiseau]

There was a lot to be said for learning by rote; it really does stick in the mind! We had a crazy Irish teacher called Miss O'Shiell; it's lovely that I am spreading her words 60 years on!

I've got some other handy ones up my sleeve, for remembering the various meanings of "si",

and for getting the order of pronouns right...

Angela

[NormanH]

There was a lot to be said for Grammar schools and 'O' levels too [:)]

[mint]

Angela, order of pronouns!  Blimey, what have I missed by not learning French in school....

Oh, do, do, do, please, please, please tell me how to remember order of pronouns.  I'm mostly OK until I come to sentences like "He gave it to me to give to you" when I'm still OKish but have to work it all out in my head first.

[Pads]

Me too...how I wish I had done french in school ..Oh well making up for it now .