Can one of the French people

[NormanH]

On the Forum (or perhaps Betty or Christine) explain this to me

Headline on TFI news

Chloé, enlevée en novembre, retrouve les policiers qui l'ont délivré

Why not délivrée? The 'l' refers to Chloé who is feminine, and is a object of the verb, preceding the past participle, in which case I thought there should be an agreement.

[YCCMB]

For me, it's a mistake. The agreement, I think, is needed because the verb isn't causative and Chloe is the DIRECT object. Journalism can be sloppy in more ways than one[:D]

This is an area of grammar that does sometimes make my head hurt, though, so I'm happy to be told I'm wrong.

[YCCMB]

Groundhog day...

[mint]

French grammar is certainly not my strong point.  But, isn't the subject les policiers?  In that case, the agreement is there? 

[Christine Animal]

Yes, I also think it's a mistake.  I always remember "la lettre que j'ai reçue" as an example to help my messy mind.

Another thing which I'm sure we talked about once on here with Clair.  Les livres d'Alexandre (an example) when it should be les livres de Alexandre, non, when it's a nom propre ?

I so often see this with an apostrophe in news articles etc. that I'm not sure any more !

Clair can you confirm that it should be de Alexandre stp.  Merci.

 

[mint]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that "délivré" refers to les policiers and that the sentence is OK.

In your example, Christine, the subject is "la lettre" and not "je" and therefore you need reçue.

[YCCMB]

And if anyone can satisfactorily explain why my village holds la fête de LA St Louis each year ( none of my French friends seem to be able to) I would be soooo grateful.

[Christine Animal]

Yes, that's another one Betty, I think they always say la Saint Jean too.

Now Sweets, if it was les policiers it would be délivrés, not délivré.  But it's not the policiers, it's la fille qu'ils ont délivrée as in la lettre que j'ai reçue.  Ils l'ont délivrée.  Has my messy mind explained that clear enough (or should that be clearly enough   [8-)]  )  ?

 

[Loiseau]

Chloé is clearly a boy, and the word "enlevée" is the one with the wrong agreement. ;-)

Angela

[NormanH]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]And if anyone can satisfactorily explain why my village holds la fête de LA St Louis each year ( none of my French friends seem to be able to) I would be soooo grateful.[/quote]

They have that at Sète too...

http://www.saintlouisasete.fr/

Thanks for the confirmation, as I was strictly taught that a past participle  agrees with the gender and number of a PDO (preceding Direct Object)..

It nags at you however when you see what you think to be a mistake in a original French source.

I tried to work out an answer to la St Louis

I wonder if Saint(e) is one of those words that changes gender according to meaning or usage?

Is it always la Fête de la   saint  with all male names( Jean Raymond Henri etc spring to mind?

In wrestling with this I came across this which has some of those infuriating peculiarities that always made me want to give up French at school

http://www.bertrandboutin.ca/Folder_151_Grammaire/E_d_genre_certains_noms.htm

[idun]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Chloé is clearly a boy, and the word "enlevée" is the one with the wrong agreement. ;-) Angela[/quote]

 

Cholé is definitely a girl, found in the boot of a car by german police........

RH, in Chambery there is an hotel, called Hotel Le France, there is a big sign above it and when we used to drive past, I always thought it looked wrong and odd........ but I'm not good at working this stuff out.

[Frenchie]

To the OP , it is definitely a mistake. It should have been " délivrée" .

As for la St jean, la St pierre, etc... That s what we say, though , I can't explain why...

AS for Le France, it sounds OK to me, it is the hotel ( masculine) that is LE France...

[5-element]

I concur with the other French natives about "délivrée"

 

. As for "la Saint Jean", "la Saint-Glinglin", etc, I think the feminine article refers to "la fête de..." which is left out as a shortcut - so instead of saying "la fête de la Saint Jean", you simply say "la Saint Jean".

[mint]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

Yes, that's another one Betty, I think they always say la Saint Jean too.

Now Sweets, if it was les policiers it would be délivrés, not délivré.  But it's not the policiers, it's la fille qu'ils ont délivrée as in la lettre que j'ai reçue.  Ils l'ont délivrée.  Has my messy mind explained that clear enough (or should that be clearly enough   [8-)]  )  ?

 

[/quote]

Thank you, Christine.  I think I've got it now.  So, it's the sort of sentence that is like this one: ç'est mois qui suis au fond? [:)]

I was confused by the 2 subjects of Chloe and les policiers.

 I am VERY envious of those  of you who have had a proper grounding in French grammar in school.  A lot of things learnt at a young age seems to stick usefully in the mind in later life.

 

edit:  Better get on with genning up on les relatifs again, I guess [blink]

[YCCMB]

[quote user="5-element"]

I concur with the other French natives about "délivrée"

 

. As for "la Saint Jean", "la Saint-Glinglin", etc, I think the feminine article refers to "la fête de..." which is left out as a shortcut - so instead of saying "la fête de la Saint Jean", you simply say "la Saint Jean".

[/quote]

But they don't, 5-E, that's what is so odd. If anything, they leave out the first "La", so that the signs and fliers often read "Fete de la St Louis"

Frenchie says what most of the people I've subjected to my little inquisition on the subject have said: "It just is, OK?"[:D] Apparently I am told, although I confess to having limited access to French TV and not having paid attention when I do, the announcement of whichever saint's day is next, which is usually at the end of some weather forecasts, uses the same thing and here (as you suggest) they leave out the whole preamble and just go for "demain nous sommes la St Pierre" It foxes me completely, because Some explanations get a bit woolly (sorry, Woolly) and people have tried to convince me that all saints' names take "la" but then we get into complex discussions about whether there is (or should be) "Saint" and "Sainte".....

It all seemed quite simple, this language lark, but let me tell you it goes downhill fast not long after "Monsieur Dumesnil fume une pipe"

[Clair]

[quote user="sweet 17"]I'm going to stick my neck out and say that "délivré" refers to les policiers and that the sentence is OK.

In your example, Christine, the subject is "la lettre" and not "je" and therefore you need reçue.[/quote]

Dear Sweet, you've just lost your head!

I'm with the other French natives! [:D]

In Christine's example ("la lettre que j'ai reçue..."), je is the subject and lettre is the complément d'objet.

If you were to say "La lettre que Christine a reçue...", it is clear that Christine (sujet) has received (verbe) a letter (complément d'objet).

(and the fact that letter cannot receive anything...)

Expanding further, in both sentences above, que represents the letter and the rule used here is:

Le participe passé employé avec avoir s’accorde avec le complément d’objet direct quand celui-ci est placé avant le verbe.

[Clair]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="5-element"]As for "la Saint Jean", "la Saint-Glinglin", etc, I think the

feminine article refers to "la fête de..." which is left out as a

shortcut - so instead of saying "la fête de la Saint Jean", you simply

say "la Saint Jean".[/quote]

But they don't, 5-E,

that's what is so odd. If anything, they leave out the first "La", so

that the signs and fliers often read "Fete de la St Louis"[/quote]

I've never really wondered about it, but, like 5-E, I've always assumed it referred to "la fête de..."

On signs and such-likes, the article is rarely used: "Kermesse de printemps", "Marché d"automne ", "Repas de Noël"...

[Christine Animal]

But Clair, that doesn't help me with Alexandre and his books.   [:D]

Ce sont les livres d'Alexandre ?

or

Ce sont les livres de Alexandre ?

I still believe the second is correct (no d' in front of a nom propre).

 

A song for Idun   [:)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYvRp8VVxNU

[idun]

Well all 'this' stuff, just again proves to me that french is not a language for the peuple, but for the intellos. That all french kids have to try and understand all this and if they haven't and have got much of it wrong, will penalise them for the whole of their lives and interfere with careers. Because the truth is that some of us are better at say sums and other things, than 'this'.

And as has been pointed out, french journalists who should know better, still make mistakes. And I am, as I have been for many years, singularly unimpressed with all 'this'. There is little egalité if part of the population are unable to get to grips with the complex grammaire of their own language.

Brings to mind a very good friend of mine (not french), internationally renowned in their field, and their written english is often iffy, because in spite of a brilliant brain, are probably a little dyslexic. The good thing is that these days, their english mistakes are picked up on spell check. I often wonder how they would have faired in french education. I do know that their moyenne would have been low.

 

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]Ce sont les livres d'Alexandre ?

or

Ce sont les livres de Alexandre ?

I still believe the second is correct (no d' in front of a nom propre).[/quote]

no d' in front of a nom propre

Never heard of that[:)]

I'd say the first is correct.

The usual grammar rule applies: On fait normalement l'élision devant un nom propre s'il commence par une voyelle ou un h muet.

Le gâteau d'Anne; le fils d'Hélène.

[YCCMB]

Trouble is, Idun, and I don't mean this unkindly, for I am all in favour of more grammar being taught, and we Brits have been very remiss when it comes to imparting the complexities of our own language to our own children...BUT..

My own opinion, for which I take full responsibility and am happy to be disagreed with (but will not be shaken) is that France and its education system seem to start from the general premise that French IS difficult, complex and requires one's full and undivided attention in order to grasp the basics, let alone the more involved aspects of the language.

As a non-native speaker, I've told people a few times that by the simple expedient of learning, parrot fashion, how to conjugate just 4 verbs: etre, avoir, aller and faire, you can soon be halfway to holding conversations in the present, future and past tenses. Verb agreements only become critical when reading and writing, even most French people neatly sidestep (or incorrectly use) the subjunctive, the Past Historic tense is only for the literati, and the rest is vocabulary. Most native French speakers take as many massive liberties with their language as do native English speakers, so any rules are at the mercy of the speaker's interpretation. Yes, to be fully-functional in any language you need to learn to read and write it, and it helps if you do the latter correctly. However, visit any French forum and you will see that there are a staggering number of French people who haven't quite reached that goal either, and, just like Anglophone forums, it's rude to point and say "look at the dunce" because they can't write like Voltaire.

I may have mentioned, here or elsewhere, that a couple of years ago our local Mairie had an expo on the school of bygone days, and on a hot August Saturday I was coerced into popping along to the Salle in the Mairie to have a go at a "dictee". Firstly, having assumed I'd be one of a handful of people including my friend Denise (92) who'd invited me, I was stunned to find myself on the back row of a roomful of some thirty or more souls, aged from pre-teen to Denise's age. Secondly, I was surprised at how seriously they all took it (and how desperate they were to see how I'd done!) and finally, I was baffled by the explanations being given by the ex-teacher who was acting as our instituteur for the purposes of this re-enactment. I made one mistake. I made it 3 times, and I kicked myself afterwards because it had been the result of some self-doubt. However, I've been learning French for some 45 years now, and I fessed up to the fact, in front of an audience, that I had no idea what they were on about when they started prattling on about "verbs of the first group" (I was exaggerating a bit, as I had some, but only a vague idea). This gave several people, including the teacher, an attack of the vapours, not least because I appeared to be able to make a reasonable fist of the task without this essential knowledge. I upset a fair few people by out-performing them, and got a sticker to say I'd done very well. All this without having had the benefit of spending my formative years being brainwashed into believing that what I'd learned was really, really difficult.

[Christine Animal]

[quote user="Clair"][quote user="Christine Animal"]Ce sont les livres d'Alexandre ?
or
Ce sont les livres de Alexandre ?

I still believe the second is correct (no d' in front of a nom propre).[/quote]

no d' in front of a nom propre
Never heard of that[:)]

I'd say the first is correct.

The usual grammar rule applies: On fait normalement l'élision devant un nom propre s'il commence par une voyelle ou un h muet.

Le gâteau d'Anne; le fils d'Hélène.

[/quote]

Thank you Clair.  But it does look as if it's not always so clear and a subject for discussion.  I was not the original poster on this link, but they have the same query:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2047436&langid=6

 

[mint]

[quote user="Clair"][quote user="sweet 17"]I'm going to stick my neck out and say that "délivré" refers to les policiers and that the sentence is OK.

In your example, Christine, the subject is "la lettre" and not "je" and therefore you need reçue.[/quote]

Dear Sweet, you've just lost your head!

I'm with the other French natives! [:D]

In Christine's example ("la lettre que j'ai reçue..."), je is the subject and lettre is the complément d'objet.

If you were to say "La lettre que Christine a reçue...", it is clear that Christine (sujet) has received (verbe) a letter (complément d'objet).

(and the fact that letter cannot receive anything...)

Expanding further, in both sentences above, que represents the letter and the rule used here is:

Le participe passé employé avec avoir s’accorde avec le complément d’objet direct quand celui-ci est placé avant le verbe.

[/quote]

Yeah, yeah, Clair, I remember it now......too late![:(]

The Proper Noun thing, Christine, is as explained by Clair.  Otherwise, how can you have Rillettes  DU Mans?

En plus, I am NOT going into the rule that says Où reprend un complément de lieu ou de temps.

"Le lieu", no problem, Le pays ou je suis née est un petit pays

BUT, I have to remember for "de temps" :  Midi, c'est l'heure où les français prennent leur déjeuner [geek]

 

 

[Christine Animal]

"The Proper Noun thing, Christine, is as explained by Clair.  Otherwise, how can you have Rillettes  DU Mans?"

Err, have you been with those policiers again Sweets ?  The subject was proper nouns starting with a vowel and whether to put an apostrophe or not.

 

[mint]

Oops, pardon, Christine.

Je suis un petit peu à coté de mes pompes![8-)]  And it's not the policiers I fear, it's the men in white coats.......[:-))]

Edit:  I have a French friend, Annie, and I do say, for example, "le mari d'Annie".  Never thought about whether it's correct or not!