Imperative - use the vous form or the infinitive?

[nectarine]

In giving simple instructions I never know whether to use the 'vous' form or the infinitive ... I know they often sound the same but in - for example, - recipes, I see both forms used: (ajoutez un oeuf, and ajouter un oeuf). Is there any real difference in use between the two please?

Merci!

[Loiseau]

I have noticed that in recipes, too, and don't understand it either!

Angela

[Patf]

moi non plus!

[Chancer]

You should use the conjugaison for the imperatif form, the verb eneding will depend on whether you totoyer or vousvoyer the person recieving the instruction/order.

I find myself lapsing into using the vous form terminaison as the tu form doesnt sound imperatif enough.

And added to that my swapping between tu and vous when addressing a couple that I tutoyer individually all adds to the confusion.

Yes I too have questioned the use of the infinitif in written instructions.

[nectarine]

Thanks, I use the 'vous' form but wonder why sometimes it's written in the infinitive ...

[mint]

[quote user="nectarine"]Thanks, I use the 'vous' form but wonder why sometimes it's written in the infinitive ...[/quote]

nectarine, I am sooooo glad you have asked this question.  I have asked about this amongst French and French-speaking friends and have never received a definitive answer.

I find most confusing of all the single word "rapelle" on roads, not vous form and not infinitive.  What the blazes???

[EmilyA]

I seem to remember from a French lesson c1963 that you drop the s in the tu form of the imperative.....

[suein56]

[quote user="mint"]

I find most confusing of all the single word "rapelle" on roads, not vous form and not infinitive.  What the blazes???

[/quote]

Methinks that should be 'rappel' and that means a reminder, so a noun and not a verb.

Sue

[Loiseau]

Aha - re those pesky tenses:

http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/givingorders.htm

"The infinitive is used for impersonal commands to an unknown audience, as in warnings, instruction manuals, and recipes. It is used in place of the vous form of the imperative."

Angela

[nectarine]

Excellent explanation, that makes perfect sense! Big thanks Loiseau !

[mint]

[quote user="suein56"][quote user="mint"]

I find most confusing of all the single word "rapelle" on roads, not vous form and not infinitive.  What the blazes???

[/quote]

Methinks that should be 'rappel' and that means a reminder, so a noun and not a verb.

Sue

[/quote]

Sue, yes, that MUST be it!

Who's top of the class then[:D][:D]

[Araucaria]

I'd always imagined that with the infinitive form - as in recipes etc - there was an implied "il faut", making the instructions a bit more impersonal than using "vous" or "tu".

[ventodue]

The 'Bible' of French grammar, Grevisse's Le Bon Usage, is curiously silent on the matter.  However,  here FWIW is a rather long-winded - but with examples! - discourse that supports Angela's contention.  That said, I have a sneaking suspicion that Araucaria's idea may also hold good ... [+o(] 

(From l'Office québécois de la langue française btw).

Impératif et infinitif

L'impératif et l'infinitif peuvent tous deux être employés pour exprimer un ordre, un conseil, une consigne, une marche à suivre ou une interdiction.

 

Exemples :

- POUSSER/TIRER

- POUSSEZ/TIREZ

 

Dans des textes administratifs, techniques ou commerciaux, on a parfois le choix d'employer l'impératif ou l'infinitif, mais leur utilisation entraîne le respect de règles de concordance avec les autres éléments de la phrase. On doit aussi veiller à les utiliser de manière uniforme, dans un même texte ou document.

 

Toutefois, ces deux modes comportent des nuances particulières qui font que l'emploi de l'un ou de l'autre est parfois plus approprié dans certains contextes, selon notamment le type d'écrit et son intention.

 

1.  L’infinitif

1.1.  L'emploi de l'infinitif convient davantage aux avis de sécurité, aux simples indications techniques, aux instructions très courtes, aux modes d'emploi généraux ou aux consignes qui s'adressent à un lectorat indifférencié. Le texte à l'infinitif est impersonnel, neutre, distant, moins prescriptif que l'impératif.

 

Exemples :

- AVANT D’OUVRIR, COUPER LE COURANT

- Avant de partir, fermer la porte

- À conserver au frais

- Ne pas nourrir les animaux

- Ne rien laisser dans la salle

- Ne pas mettre en marche

- Éteindre et débrancher l’appareil après usage.

- Indiquer la date d'entrée en vigueur du contrat.

- Découper suivant le pointillé.

- Appuyer sur le bouton entrée pour ouvrir le menu principal.

- Faire sauter le jambon et les échalotes pendant cinq minutes.

 

1.2.  Lorsqu'on emploie l'infinitif, on doit dépersonnaliser les pronoms et les adjectifs possessifs ou les utiliser à la troisième personne (éviter l'emploi de vous, votre, vos), et employer des tournures impersonnelles, comme prière de.

 

Exemples  :

 - Commencer par l'emploi le plus récent. (et non : par votre emploi le plus récent)

- Prière de ne pas déranger.

- Pour bénéficier de ces avantages, il faut en faire la demande avant le 31 décembre (formule non infinitive, mais impersonnelle)

- Les candidats sélectionnés devront se présenter aux auditions qui auront lieu le 8 mars prochain. (formule non infinitive, mais à la troisième personne)

 

2.  L’impératif

2.1  Le mode impératif évoque un ton plus personnel, plus proche du public lecteur. Il convient davantage pour donner des instructions ou des conseils à suivre personnellement.

 

2.2  On l'emploie notamment dans les formulaires dans lesquels on demande explicitement de répondre à des questions précises, comme une demande d'emploi, et dans le texte des affiches de sécurité dont le style est direct, parfois familier, et accompagné d'une illustration. Les recettes sont souvent à l’impératif.

 

Exemples :

- N'oubliez pas de remplir le verso du formulaire de demande d'emploi.

- Portez toujours votre équipement de sécurité dans l'usine.

- Si le poste vous intéresse, faites parvenir votre candidature à l’adresse ci-dessous.

- Si vous désirez participer au concours, remplissez le coupon de participation et postez-le avant le 10 mars.

- Ajoutez 50 ml de jus d’orange.

 

2.3  Avec l'impératif, on emploie les pronoms personnels et les adjectifs possessifs à la deuxième personne (vous, votre, vos).

 

Exemples :

 - Veuillez faire parvenir votre curriculum vitæ à madame Lise Hudon.

 - Vous voyagez à l’étranger? Consultez notre site Internet avant votre départ.

 

2.4  L’expression  s'il vous plaît (ainsi que son abréviation SVP d’un usage plus familier), ne s’emploient qu’avec l’impératif et se place en principe à la fin de la phrase.

 

Exemples :

- Respectez le silence des lieux, s'il vous plaît!

- Faites-moi parvenir vos commentaires SVP.

 

[Al Rogers]

What an interesting discussion. I often (and rather pretentiously) use "Cliquez ici" as a label for internet links in my emails as I gear up for my move to France. Then I began to see "Cliquer" used in a similar context. This thread explains it.

The more I read and listen to French, the more the language comes across as quite flexible in construction. My school language teachers would turn over in their graves. Haven't decided yet if this will make it easier or more difficult to reach a reasonable standard but it certainly will make the learning process more interesting.

[nectarine]

Ventodue, thank you! Excellent explanation. I'm not sure that it's generally adhered to in common usage but it's good to know the rules!

[mint]

Very clear explanation, ventodue.  I believe that I WOULD now hear and notice the difference.

What made me smile is the last bit when it says that you only say "please" when you are in imperative mode!!  Sounds a bit like me to the OH, darling PLEASE turn the sound down[I]

[Hereford]

Interesting post re the Québec instructions.  My son lives and works in Québec and says his (French speaking) colleagues often write the infinitive of a verb instead of the past participle in official letters to "customers" of the Min of Justice (where he works - not a customer). It used to drive said son mad and he ended up correcting the letters in French as well as writing the English ones.  Been promoted now so doesn't write letters any more!!

[Chancer]

Do you have a web link to that text Ventodue as I would like to save it for future reference.

The following may or not be relevant, it might be yet another can of worms, its something I only hear said and have never read so I dont know if its being said in the infinitive or imperatif form, I am going to write it in the imperatif as thats what until now I thought I was hearing.

Its when someone that tutoyers me says "right, were off!" or "right, lets go" "off you go!" "good luck!" etc, they say "Allez! on y va" "Allez! courage!" etc.

Or is it really "Aller, .............." ?

[ventodue]

1.  Here you are, Chancer:

http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?t1=1&id=4208

2.  And it's definitively, "Allez!"  (As in, "Allez, circulez, il n'y a rien à voir" ... [:)]) 

Btw, it's always "Allez" even if you're tutoy-ing the person you're addressing.  So, "Allez, finis ton travail".  Or even better* [:D] [8-)], "Allez, viens, on s'en va!"

* La grammaire?  On s'en moque, quoi .. [:-))]

[ventodue]

[quote user="Hereford"]My son lives and works in Québec and says his (French speaking) colleagues often write the infinitive of a verb instead of the past participle in official letters to "customers" of the Min of Justice ... <snip>[/quote]

Yup, it's not as uncommon here in France as it should be, either [:)].

It also gained a certain amount of renown in connection with a celebrated murder case in 1991.  The scrawled accusation, "Omar m'a tuer" pointed the finger at a certain Omar Raddad as being the killer of Ghislaine Marchal who had employed him as her gardener.  Raddad was tried, found guilty and sentenced to 18 years, but has always protested his complete innocence. He was released early, in 1998, under a partial presidential pardon. His defence counsel continues to ask for new DNA analyses to be made of blood samples, which are not his, that were found on the scene of the crime.

 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Omar_Raddad#La_gr.C3.A2ce_pr.C3.A9sidentielle

[NormanH]

Our local paper is quite capable  of such mistakes as:

'la machine a vendager'  which is two mistakes in one phrase.... (instead of 'la machine à vendager')

Your explanation is very much  fuller than I have seen before, but it has always seemed pretty obvious that an order with an implied subject (donnez (vous)  moi le livre) is more personal than an instruction with no person (Donner)

How easy it is to make silly mistakes though.

Early on in my time in France I heard someone speaking to her parents and using 'vous'.  I said so "so you still vouvoyer your Mum and  Dad? "  She remplied 'but I was speaking to both of them.  DUH [:$]

[Loiseau]

Ooh, but I knew somebody who - to my astonishment - DID vouvoyer his father...

Angela

[Cendrillon]

I think that was quite common in the olden days and especially within the upper class families.

[NormanH]

Yes that's true, which is why I said "so you still vouvoyer...." [:)]

[mint]

What amuses me a bit is when you use tu when speaking to God!

Still, if God is your father you ought to be on tu terms.  OTOH, they use Seigneur which makes a conversation with God a bit confusing if not schizophrenic.  One moment you are calling Him (it's still always Him instead of Her?) Seigneur, which to me implies exalted status and deserving of a bit of forelock tugging, and the next moment you are on intimate and informal tu terms?

Anyone else detect an anomaly there?