OK, So When do You Pronounce the T?

[Grecian]

Got to admit this one has confused me since I  have lived here, although most of the French language does that to me.

Words ending in T, hmm...

My confusion arises from when you pronounce the T or not, for example:

The word But

I would consider pronouncing but as, boot, that would include pronouncing the T, but then take the word Sport, to my mind that is pronounced spoor, no T.

As neither word has an e or s after it, how do you know when to pronounce the T?

Is there a hard and fast rule for words ending in T, little chance of that I would guess being the French language, or is it a case of learning all the words by heart.

If anybody can shed some light on this matter it would be most appreciated.

[Chancer]

I think the key is the preceding vowel or consonant and whether it has a feminine form (sorry I cant explain in grammatical terms)

 

So the T not pronounced in goût, debout, fort etc

 

But pronounced in goutte goûter, forte etc

 

Now I pronounce the T in but but not as strongly as in butte but this is only from observation.

[EuroTrash]

Why would you say the T at the end of 'but'?

I wouldn't.

[suein56]

I would, reference :

http://www.wordreference.com/fren/but

click on écouter to hear the french pronounciation.

Sue

[Kong]

The letter T seems to be disappearing from English. On the Sarth coast where I was working some time back, the container that milk was delivered in was called a 'bo'le'. It's the way the language is going ini'. Is the same happening in French? Round here they pronounce all the letters, terminal or not. Eg bonne is pronounced 'bonner'.

[idun]

If I was talking about the shop 'But', I would pronounce the 't', I would say I was going to Buuu.

Why would I say this, because all the french peaople I know call it Bu't' with a 't'. No idea what they say in other regions, I only needed to be understood where I lived.[:D]

[alittlebitfrench]

Ey met or Ey mais ?

T##ts or twais ?

[NormanH]

[quote user="Kong"]The letter T seems to be disappearing from English. On the Sarth coast where I was working some time back, the container that milk was delivered in was called a 'bo'le'. It's the way the language is going ini'. Is the same happening in French? Round here they pronounce all the letters, terminal or not. Eg bonne is pronounced 'bonner'.[/quote]

And it has become a 'd' in American 'English'

'budder'

'Unided Sdades'

'Whadya wanna eed'

[NormanH]

2. Le t muet

Il ne se prononce pas à la fin des mots ou des noms, sauf dans les exemples suivants.

a) Les nombres sept, huit, leurs dérivés (dix-sept) et

selon un usage récent, surtout présent dans l'Est le

chiffre vingt. Mais le t ne se prononce traditionnellement pas si le

mot suivant dans le groupe commence par une consonne (se'

semaines).  Il convient de noter que le retour du t  dans

sept est récent, que la lettre était muette au

début du siècle dernier. Voir à ce sujet la page

sur les nombres.

b) Les mots courts comme dot, mat, pat, fat (usage maltraité,

net, ort, est, ouest, zest, fret, lest, ut, brut, zut, rut, but (avec

une prononciation sans t aussi). Le rétablissement du t en

finale date du XVIIIe s. pour un grand nombre de ces mots. Attention !

le mot coût selon la règle se prononce avec un t muet.

c) Le mot fait se prononce avec un t sonore au singulier, mais un t

muet au pluriel (comme pour œufs, os, bœufs, ours). Toutefois, la

règle est malmenée. Il est muet aussi dans fait divers,

en fait de, tout à fait.

d) Le mot soit, seul, avec t sonore, marque l'adhésion. Le mot

soit marquant l'alternative (soit...  soit) se prononce avec t

muet. Le verbe soit marquant l'hypothèse (soit deux ensembles) a

un t muet, sauf en cas de liaison.

e) Des mots latins :

– aconit, accessit, déficit, granit, prétérit,

coït, affidavit, sufficit, transit, prurit, exit (mais granit

écrit aussi granite) ;

– occiput, comput (et aussi azimut) ;

– exeat, fiat, magnificat, vivat (mais des vivas) ;

– licet.

f) Des mots anglais : jet (distinct du jet français), set, lift,

offset, flirt, cockpit, bit, octet, toast (mais sport, ticket, criquet,

mots plus anciens).

g) Dans des noms propres étrangers : Josaphat, Budapest, Bucarest, Belfast, Liszt, Faust, Kant.

h) Dans les noms Christ (mais pas dans Jésus-Christ) et Antéchrist.

i) Lorsqu'un d précède un t, c'est le t qui domine par assimilation : Humboldt, Cronstadt, Hardt.

j) Le groupe final ct est entièrement prononcé : abject,

exact, tact, compact, contact, intellect, sélect, infect,

correct, verdict. Exception : suspect, respect, circonspect, instinct, distinct, succinct, amict.

k) Le groupe pt final est entièrement prononcé : abrupt,

transept, rapt, concept. Exceptions : les formes verbales rompt et

corrompt.

Le h est encore muet dans les noms propres français

formés à partir de Font (Fontvieille), Mont (Montrachet,

Montréal), Pont (Pontfaverger, Pontmartin). La règle est

toutefois sujette à des vicissitudes.

[Chancer]

[quote user="idun"]If I was talking about the shop 'But', I would pronounce the 't', I would say I was going to Buuu.

Why would I say this, because all the french peaople I know call it Bu't' with a 't'. No idea what they say in other regions, I only needed to be understood where I lived.[:D]
[/quote]

 

I was talking about but as in  a goal or the aim of doing something, I didn't know it was a place, the Butte I mentioned I dont know what it is either but there is a CDH called La domiane de la butte.

 

Around my parts the T is pronounced in the shop name But.

[Gardengirl]

[quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="idun"]If I was talking about the shop 'But', I would pronounce the 't', I would say I was going to Buuu.

Why would I say this, because all the french peaople I know call it Bu't' with a 't'. No idea what they say in other regions, I only needed to be understood where I lived.[:D]
[/quote]

 

I was talking about but as in  a goal or the aim of doing something, I didn't know it was a place, the Butte I mentioned I dont know what it is either but there is a CDH called La domiane de la butte.

 

Around my parts the T is pronounced in the shop name But.

[/quote]

I think it means 'mound', from something I was reading recently, Chancer.

Norman, I thought I was OK-ish on pronouncing 't' At the ends of words, but now I'm confused!

[mint]

Norman, n'oublie pas le T-shirt!

2 tees but the shirt part does not sound like our "shirt"[:D]  More like our "short"........ha, ha, ha!

[suein56]

[quote user="gardengirl "]

I think it means 'mound', from something I was reading recently, Chancer. [/quote]

We have lots of buttes around here, I wonder if it is of Breton origin. It is definitely a hillock or mound.

Sue

[idun]

http://www.but.fr/

There is the store.

And listening to this it is certainly but, with a pronounced 't' and a definite 'u' as said in french![:D]

http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/but/11768

Yes, a goal, but my interest in the boring game is such that I never gave it a thought.

Is there a language that is always 'just so'?????

[YCCMB]

Finnish is an easy language to pick up in the sense that it is written exactly as it is pronounced ( that doesn't mean the grammar is easy, though, I suspect!)

One of the many reasons that some people in education got a bit tetchy about press reports that Finnish children start school later than British children, yet they can write and read to a better level much more quickly. The language is much more straightforward to read and write than English or French, 'cos WYSIWYG.

[Grecian]

Wow, I wish I hadn't asked. [:-))]

So basically the usual total confusion when it comes to the French language regarding the letter T, what chance do we have. It would seem to be a case of learning the various 'T' words by heart, dead easy as the rest of the French language is soooo easy.[:D]

Thank you all for trying to explain the letter T to me.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Finnish is an easy language to pick up in the sense that it is written exactly as it is pronounced ( that doesn't mean the grammar is easy, though, I suspect!)

One of the many reasons that some people in education got a bit tetchy about press reports that Finnish children start school later than British children, yet they can write and read to a better level much more quickly. The language is much more straightforward to read and write than English or French, 'cos WYSIWYG.[/quote]Finnish an easy language? May be because the pronounciation and spelling are in sync but the grammar and syntax are completely different as it is not an indo-european language. The only other languages related to it is Hungarian, Estonian and some Sami dialects.

Sweden has also had fairly recent spelling reforms to make the spelling match the pronounciation which certainly helps  children to learn to read and write. I think there is probably a good case to made for an English Spelling reform but given the wide spread of English I am sure this won't happen

[YCCMB]

Rabbie, I did actually say that Finnish was easy in that it is written as it sounds. I then went on to say that I didn't beleive it was grammatically easy.

In fact, I also believe it is considered one of the most difficult languages for native English speakers to learn, for the reasons you have elaborated in your post.

However, as my comment was in response to a post on pronunciation, not linguistic difficulty, and as Idun had just posted saying that she thought most languages had pronunciation inconsistencies, that's what I was focusing on.

[idun]

In many ways I would dearly love spelling to be easier, when I look at some things in olde english, it makes more sense.

HOWEVER, I am from the north and in english say bath and not barth and for castle say caslle and not carslle. So whose pronunciation would be used........... as if I had to ask, and I frankly don't want or need to spell like a southerner or forbid, sound like one!!![:-))]

In France in spite of some regional differences,  the accents are usually less pronounced so maybe it would be possible to make french spelling easier, but I doubt that they the grand academie ever will. [blink]

[YCCMB]

Idun, they did, I think, have a go at simplifying spelling in the early 1990's.

However, in that lovely French way, the "simplifications" were almost more complicated, and everyone refused to adopt them. So now what you've got are a bunch of words where nobody can agree about the spelling.

[Rabbie]

Idun don't worry . I am sure th that english spelling reform won't happen in the next hundred years. I would hate for regional differences to disappear.

The only spelling reforms I would be in favour of are for those words ending in "ough". I t was be very confusing for foreigners and for children learning to read.

I mean you have rough, through, thorough, though all with a different sound. And if you are irish then you have "lough" as well.

YCCMB, I accept your point about Finnish. Please accept my apologies

[YCCMB]

Haha! Funny you should pick on that one, Rabbie: I used to amuse myself and my students by sticking up lists of words containing "ough" and seeing if they could pronounce them. Generally, they couldn't. its also interesting that if you google for how many different ways of pronouncing the combination, opinions vary as to whether there are six, seven, eight or ten ways of pronouncing the sound. True, there are fewer in American English, but it's absurd.

http://grammar.about.com/od/words/a/OUGHpoem.htm

[NickP]

I seem to remember  educators in the seventies in England coming out with a new system of reading and spelling "phonetically", but it died the death as the kids they experimented on quickly fell behind other children on the normal system. There was such an uproar the scheme was dropped.

[idun]

Trouble is ofcourse when you have idiots for teachers with no imagination and a dyslexic pupil, who struggles to write properly, so tends, well usually, writes phonetically, french teachers at least, give 0/20. When in fact every answer is correct if read out loud, in fact, most answers during question time in class are correct and said imbecilic teachers believe that because the child refuses to write properly that the child is taking the mickey.

So just who is taking the mickey????? certainly not the child who ends up scared of education, mockery and scared for life.

And so you have me started............ and I won't type out a further 1000 pages, because I could.

Just get on with something at home now, maybe chop some sticks for the fire, and think very very bad things about l'education nationale!