A question for YCCMB

[Noisette]

If I may...The everlasting battle with the subjonctif continues. Which would be more correct, stp? 'Ne me dites jamais qu'il pleut davantage en angleterre qu'en Aquitaine' or ' ne me dites jamais qu'il pleuve davantage etc etc.' Merci! Yours damply...:-)

[YCCMB]

Oh that's a good one and very nasty, and quite honestly I've no idea.

I'd err towards saying yes, because of the negative. I'm looking at "dire que" rather than "ne jamais" if that makes sense. In other words, my view is that if you said "ne me dites pas que", then it would be subjunctive, so if you swap the pas for a jamais, it also should be. My workings are that if "dire que" is an order, which in your example it is, then it should take the subjunctive.

That's given me a headache.

[EuroTrash]

I would have jumped the other way and said No, because although "dire" is negative, the thing you are actually saying - the verb after the "que", ie pleuvoir - isn't negative, and that's the verb you are putting into the subjunctive (or not).

Using this logic it would be "Ne me dites jamais qu'il pleut davantage en angleterre qu'en Aquitaine" but "Ne me dites jamais qu'il ne pleuve pas davantage en angleterre qu'en Aquitaine" or alternatively "Dites-moi qu'il ne pleuve pas davantage en angleterre qu'en Aquitainé". I.e. it makes no difference whether the Dites bit is positive or negative, what makes the difference is whether the thing that is said, is positive or negative.

That was my first reaction, I'm not saying it's right!

[Noisette]

[quote user=" YCCMB"]Oh that's a good one and very nasty, and quite honestly I've no idea.

That's given me a headache.[/quote] Eeek! My world's just crumbled lol. That's like finding out that the big, bearded, whooshy one in a dress is having a rethink about the Ten Commandments, and perhaps murder isn't so bad after all :-) You've got a headache?? ROFLMAO

[Noisette]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]I would have jumped the other way and said No,

That was my first reaction, I'm not saying it's right![/quote] So..let's see....is this a 52% / 48% split? ;-) Thank you so much, ET! Double negatives I can also do without! I'm going for a lie down in a darkened cellar. I may be some time....:-)

[NormanH]

Dites-moi jamais qu'il pleut davantage en Angleterre......?

[Noisette]

Is that a question or an answer, NormanH? No sitting on the fence :-)

[NormanH]

A tentative suggestion. I have always translated from French to English ...

[Noisette]

And very kind too! Thank you :-)

[YCCMB]

When I started my reply reply, it got zapped in the ether. I said two things which I couldn't be bothered to retype.

One was "I wouldn't worry, plenty of people will pop along with a view. It is, after all, a forum"

Another was "there are many ways to avoid using the subjunctive at all, and I strongly recommend trying all of them"

And lo, my predictions were correct. I am more than happy to say that both ET and Norman have provided excellent answers .

One other thing I said when my original answer disappeared was that it depends on your audience as to how much of a damn they give anyway. One thing you do find when teaching (insert language here) as a foreign language, is that those learning a second or third language are more often than not greater sticklers for the correct use of the language than many native speakers. e.g. I keep getting my linguistic knuckles rapped by a friend for saying "un copain à....X. " I know it's "de", but half the people I know locally say à. I've lapsed off the other end of being grammatically perfect, it appears. Not that I ever was!

[Noisette]

At the risk of appearing a know-it-all (far from..) I know, I know, I know and I know lol. I just lurrrve hearing them say that I speak 'better' French than their children/friends/neighbours.... whatever. Pure vanity :-)

And I will sort out this subjunctive thing, if it takes me the rest of my life. Oh and that's another one....no rule for à or 'de' in front of a verb. Isn't it about time the Académie got off their backsides and defined one? All you get is a Gallic shrug and 'you learn it as you go along'. Oh no you don't!

[EuroTrash]

I agree with the avoid tactic - if I see a potential subjunctive appearing on the horizon I change tack. Unless it's one I'm rock solid on, and then I aim straight at it just to show off :-) :-) I'm reliable on Il faut que je fasse and a few others.

I may have said this before but when I was new in France, first time I got the sweep in, Dad went up on the roof while grubby little lad - he couldn't have been more than 16 and he looked less - was tasked with pushing the brush up the chimney. I have a huge fireplace but the chimney itself is deceptively narrow, so the little lad started with a big brush which got nowhere, then kept trying smaller and smaller brushes until he got impatient and started muttering to himself "pas possible qu'elle soit si petite". It tickled me pink that small grubby French chimney sweeps should be so good on their subjunctives.

Now the lad has grown into a tall good-looking young man and taken over dad's business and he brings a mate with him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's soon bringing his own nipper round with him.

[Noisette]

Not sure if this will work.....https://youtu.be/ribZ06BmFf4 but if it does, it's one of a series worth a look on a wet, miserable day :-)

@EuroTrash lol...

[Loiseau]

Tricky one, but "mon feeling" would be for no subjunctive.

I like Norman's more elegant construction of the beginning, too.

EDIT

Whoops, I hadn't realised this thread had passed onto a second page while I was driving found the DIY stores of west London, so my réponse lacks erudition and is sadly out of date.

[Gardengirl]

I’m another who avoids the subjunctive almost always, unless I know I’m on safe ground.

I remember how pleased I was when I first heard a Frenchman get a subjunctive wrong - that really gave me hope.

[YCCMB]

There's also the whole issue of the subjunctive being a "mood" and not a tense, which brings me out in hives.

I agree ET, there are always those moments when you kinda want to lob in a subjunctive like a well-primed grenade, just to prove you can. On the day-to-day though, "Hop! On se casse!" seems perfectly adequate and a lot less bother than "il faut qu'on s'en aille"

[Noisette]

Not even! Round here, it's 'bon, allez!' At least 4 times before actually departing lol. But then, we're not 'elegant' ;-)

[richard51]

Using google for subjunctive in english:

I insist that he is here (indicative, a forceful assertion of the fact that he is here)

I insist that he be here (subjunctive, a demand that the condition of his being here be fulfilled)

So in your example its the former of these two - Yes?

Interesting that Norm goes French to English - have you noticed a difference?

Not sure if there is a problem with my computer.

[Patf]

I'm  a bit late on this.

I thought Noisette was asking what form of the verb pleuvoir to us - pleut or pleuve?

I know nowt about the subjunctive either. They must have invented it after I left school.

[richard51]

Yep, Pat, that is exactly what she was asking.

Nutty is improving her already good french - as it should be. I've an impossible task at my age.

Nutty is as far as my french goes in translation.

[Noisette]

Nuts to you, sweetie :-) As for that codswallop about age, I'll be 105 this year and I've still got all my own teeth. They're in a box in a cupboard somewhere ;-) Thank you for the example, though! Very concise.

Don't worry about it, Pat. I doubt it will crop up much in NE England :-) Hope all is going well for you both!

[richard51]

?

How bizarre!

Sweet 17 is mint!!

I've got my own teeth too. Though one of my colleagues (chief technician at the time) was rather pi@@ed off when she found a false tooth in my desk draw when I asked her to find something in the office. That was when I was 40 and I gave up using the dentures then.Still have a gap there!!

In terms of French then fine - why not call yourself hazelnut on an english forum.

Is my example not correct? I actually am trying to learn and have not had the advantage of being into France from an early age.

Contrary to your belief I actually admire people who immerse themselves into another country (if that is what you have done). I was trying to be complimentary to you.

NB sod the sexism!!!

[richard51]

Perhaps WB should stop calling people other names!!!

Seems better ATM.

[richard51]

If I am wrong then correct me. People come on to this forum to get correct responses.

[Noisette]

Good morning, richard51 :-) Apologies for having put you on the defensive! It was just a poor attempt at humour :-) My name really is Noisette. The French can't cope with 'H'.

https://youtu.be/1JlRyK3Q6gc

Aren't we lucky that there are so many different methods for learning nowadays! It's just a matter of finding the ones best adapted. Bonne journée :-)