another grammatical question

[Patf]

About the combination of ne and pas around a verb.

Sometimes the pas isn't necessary.

Is it correct to say "je ne comprends toujours". I still don't understand.

Or should it be "je ne comprends pas toujours".

[EuroTrash]

The rule is that you need ne + another bit.

Usually the other bit is "pas".

But there are certain specific constructions where it is ne +something else instead of the "pas".

The most common are

ne ... rien - nothing

ne... jamais - never

ne... personne - nobody

ne... plus - no more

However ne... toujours is not such a construction.

So it would be "je ne comprends toujours pas" (I still don't understand) or "je ne comprends pas toujours" (I don't always understand).

Does that help?

[BritinBretagne]

There are also times when the ne is redundant.

[Loiseau]

I seem to remember from distant school days that omitting the "pas" (as in the OP) only applies when using certain verbs. “Pouvoir” springs to mind. “Je ne peux le faire"

Not sure if there are others.

Ah, [url=https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/ne-litteraire/]here[/url] is something on the subject. It's hellishly complicated...

EDITED - among other things, to try and make a live link following Cajal's wonderful instructions of 27 Dec; but I see I have failed miserably, so here is the plain link again:

https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/ne-litteraire/

[YCCMB]

Grammatically, if it's a negative, then the "ne" isn't redundant.

However, the evolution of the spoken language is such that M. Le Français Moyen will probably drop the "ne" when speaking.

"Je sais pas" and "j'ai jamais vu" will frequently be heard in everyday speech. The reality is that they're accepted and acceptable but still wrong. Just like "innit" and "I ain't never"

[woolybanana]

They are not wrong, just alternate forms. The decisions of a committee in Paris do not a language make, just a version of it.

[YCCMB]

I think there's a subtle distinction between dropping the actual negative form when expressing the negative, and not being allowed to say "le weekend" or " le sandwich".

I'm the first to embrace the concept of language as evolving and to call people out for wishing we'd all carried on speaking like Chaucer, but I'm not as keen on saying that, grammatically ( and I DID specifically say "grammatically") dropping the negative is OK. Like most people, I do it all the time when speaking. I would never write it that way, though.

[EuroTrash]

Wooly, try that one on your French teacher or your GCSE examiner ;-)

And why not argue that tu est and various other common alternative forms aren't wrong either.

Seriously - I would say dropping the ne when the rules say it should be there, is colloquially acceptable but grammatically incorrect. So in a context where you should be grammatically correct, like a formal written communication or speech, it would be wrong. Papoting with your friends it is fine. But like everything the important thing is to know the rule, so that you break it from choice in appropriate situations, not from ignorance in inappropriate situations.

[BritinBretagne]

The are always differences between the contemporary spoken form of the language and the ‘rules’. I was always amused in the days of Anglo Info because they often appeared to have attracted a population who wrote English as they spoke it, with no understanding of or respect for conventions.

For the majority of British people in France being able to communicate is far more important than getting the details spot on and if they learn by speaking to their friends and neighbours the norms of spoken French will be more important than theoretical correctness. No difference to our first language there then.

[Patf]

Thanks for the replies - there's more to it than I thought, lots of grammar rules that I either never learnt, or have forgotten.

BinB I agree about communication (verbal) being the main thing for british people in France.

I used to babble on and probably made lots of mistakes but enjoyed the conversations.

[Judith]

I had to laugh, Betty, when I met this one .. I would often miss out one of the negatives, but with me it was always the pas and not the ne ... now I do it more like a really frenchie.

[Patf]

I found this example today:

"Une quincaillerie comme on en trouve plus!" Leaving out the 'ne'.

[Florence from Frangliche]

There's a lot of rules about the negatives but as a rule the second part of the negative, which is not always "pas" cannot be removed. So in the case of your sentence, I still don't understand, you have to say: "Je ne comprends toujours pas".

If you say: " Je ne comprends pas toujours", you would be saying I don't ALWAYS understand. So here you have a different problem due to the fact that toujours has 2 meanings in French. But in any case, you have to keep "pas".