Konrad Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 In December 2008 I was leaving a Super U car park in my car, which was driven by my wife.We were in the exit lane and were stationary waiting for a van to move so that we could drive out of the car park. The other driver (who works for Schindler - the lift people) clearly did not see us and reversed his vehicle very slowly from his parking space until it pushed into the door of our car. There was no obvious damage to the Schindler vehicle. He drove back into his parking space whilst we exchanged insurance details. Neither of us could locate the European Accident Statement Document, although typically I found ours as soon as we had driven away. At the time I did not call the police as he seemed apologetic and told us that his insurance was good. The fact that he worked for a company that we had heard of also reassured us. There were no independent witnesses although my wife was in the driving seat and I was in the passenger seat. However we were not too concerned as he was clearly at fault.I reported this to my insurance company and went ahead with the repairs which came to approximately £1200. I had to pay an excess on the policy of £200 which my insurance company said they would claim back from the other driver.In November 2009 I was contacted finally by my insurance company to say that they could proceed no further as the otherdriver had not reported the accident and that his insurance company were denying that he had been involved. I have since contacted Schindler customer relations in the area nearest to where the accident took place. Although they initially responded they are now not answering any EMails from me. In summary:No independent witnessesNo Agreed statement of facts and a third party driver who denied any involvement.His company are refusuing to communicateMy insurance have given up.This irritates me greatly. I have a picture of his van taken at the time although I think they are suggesting that I drove around the car park and randomly took the picture.Any suggestions. Any contacts at Schindler that I can write to. Konrad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 [quote user="Konrad"]In summary:No independent witnessesNo Agreed statement of facts and a third party driver who denied any involvement.His company are refusuing to communicateMy insurance have given up.Any suggestions. Any contacts at Schindler that I can write to.[/quote] Writing to a Schindler contact won't do much good if you have no proof that their vehicle was involved in the accident.Time to give up, I reckon....[:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 And start putting money aside for your increased premiums due to loss/reduction of your bonus.Sorry to add to the bad news [:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 I'll get you some contact numbers for swindlers lifts, having a run in with them now over a lift problem, **$$**$'s [6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad Posted March 15, 2010 Author Share Posted March 15, 2010 Thanks for taking the time to make some suggestions. I know I am probably wasting my time but it really irritates me that that smug b*****d has got away with damaging my car when we were stationary. I would like to send the information to as many people as I can in Schwindlers just to see if I can stir up any trouble for the driver. The fact that I got his name and all his insurance details and a picture of his van straight after the accident, perhaps suggests that we did have some discussion, although my insurance company did not do much about this I feel. I think they knew it was going to be difficult claiming back from a French Insurance company from the UK.The only plus point for me is that in our apartment block in France, we have a lift that is serviced by you know who. When he drove into my car he then came up to service the lift. I shall be waiting for his visit in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josa Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Just so I am clear - are you saying that you are domicied in the UK and your car is UK registered, but you had the accident in France?If so, you can use the UK small claims court and I suspect you will be successful in winning against the other party - see the note below:In a very important decision on 13th December 2007 the European Court of Justice has ruled that the insurance provisions of the Brussels Regulations [2001] E.C.44 are to be interpreted to allow victims in road traffic accidents in another member state to bring direct actions against European domiciled insurers in the Courts of the victim’s own domicile. The decision confirms the interpretation of the Fifth Motor Insurance Directive (Directive 2005/14/EC of 11th May 2005) which came into force on 11/06/2007 and removes a considerable degree of uncertainty as to the application of that Directive. The decision was of major importance for road traffic accident victims and their lawyers. The case had the unprounceable name of FBTO Schadervezekeringen N.V. v Jack Odenbreit (case C-436/06) which was a German case in which Mr O domiciled in Germany was injured in an accident 28th December 2003 in a road traffic accident which occurred in the Netherlands. In very short summary therefore it is now established beyond doubt that a UK victim of a road traffic accident can bring a direct action against any European Liability Insurer of the tortfeaser in the Courts of their own domicile under the provision of EC Council Regulation 44/2001. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velcorin Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Not sure that is relevant in this case. The claim has been rejected by the other party, and their insurers, due to lack of proof. Disingenous? maybe. All InterClercs around here have CCTV on the carparks, to deter thieves. Might be worth enquiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josa Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 It is relevant - It might surprise you but many insurers reject claims - doesn't mean they are correct lolIn this case issue the proceedings in the local (English) Small Claims Court - evidence of the accident etc is given by the OP and his wife and the photograph can be shown as indicative - highly unlikely the other side will produce any witnesses (what can they say if they are denying an accident??) and provided the OP comes across as truthful to the Judge with that evidence on the balance of probabilities the case would be won. I suspect it would not even get to a hearing as they will either not defend and you get a default judgment, or if they do defend it would be more economic to settle than to run to a hearing they would not win. And if in the unlikely event you lose - so it has cost you £75 court fee (recoverable if you win) - no legal costs are payable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 You're being given the runaround by your insurance company.Why would a complete stranger (the lift man) give you all his details including his insurance dtails when he claims he didn't do anything. Go back to your insurers and tell them to fight it harder for you.You always have the fall back of the small claims court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 My experience of this comes from a UK perspective and may not be true in France but I would say the most likely culprit will be the lift company.It could just be that a small claims court summons, especially if it is in English might induce them to submit an accident report to their insurers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 "Why would a complete stranger (the lift man) give you all his details including his insurance dtails when he claims he didn't do anything."The lift man isn't a complete stranger, though. He services the lift in Konrad's appartment.What might his view of this be?Konrad had a bump in his car and when he got home, he saw my van parked outside. Seeing an opportunity for a false insurance claim, he parked his car across the back of it and took a photo, then noted down my name (he knows me) together with van's registration number and insurance details from the windscreen vignette. He obviously couldn't get me to sign a constat, so he now says he only found one after I'd had left the scene. His wife, of course, has agreed to back him up as a witness.So, who's version is the real one? The constat is an unarguable record of events, so the moral is - always get one signed......[;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 The first thing I'd do is start communicating via registered post - emails are not much good in this situation IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad Posted March 15, 2010 Author Share Posted March 15, 2010 Unfortunately the description given by Sunday Driver of an alternative chain of events around the accident is very similar to what my insurance company came back with once they had approached his insurers. I don't know if the sticker on the windscreen of French vehicles includes the name of the insurer as well as the policy number, but no doubt there will be a way that I could have got that information as well. For the record the other driver is not aware that I have an apartment in one of the blocks where he services the lifts I wanted to hold that one back for the moment. Also for the record this accident did happen exactly as I said although I think (hope) Sunday Driver is playing devils advocate here. I am clearly not destined for a career in crime otherwise I would have picked on a vehicle that had signs of an accident to photograph !!I was not aware that I had any come back through the small claims courts but that is a route that I shall investigate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Interesting..........Two years ago, Mrs Gluey and I popped into Brico Wrecko, fresh off the shuttle and en route for home, in France.As I waited to leave the carpark, a very tight turn, a young guy driving a Brico Depot Self Drive Transit builder's truck, turned in, going too quickly, obviously failed to judge the side overhand on the chassis, came rought over to the wrong side of the road and smashed into our Volvo.By the time I managed to turn round (very busy period and loads of traffic and not easy to turn around and go back) and chase him he had parked the van and done a runner!I reported the accident to Brico Depot since they are the insured.Contacted the police at the local Gendarmerie and despite having the driver's name and address and a letter sent to the Gendarmerie by An English friend (Who was an Avocat Honnaire of the local court) they police were not at all interested.My lawyer friend suggested my only remaining course of action would be to complain to The Prefect.However, it now would appear I could sue Brico Depot and the driver in an English County Court as joint defendants, if my understanding of the earlier post and the precedent case is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-D de Rouffignac Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 May I add my voice to those urging you to push your insurance company into action. I have a case of damage to my car caused by the Mairie and we are now approaching the first anniversary, with their insurance company still prevaricating, taking as long as possible to reply to letters, asking for papers they have already received etc etc. My insurers - GAN, bless them! - are determined to fight and win. They have similar cases - damage to cars through water filled pot-holes, now even worse since the snowfalls last week - and one case dating back to October 2008. I too have witnesses, photographs etc - even evidence from the security people at the Mairie, as the damage occurred right outside their building. Do not give up. P-D de R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kizpip Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Lots of valid points have been made so you already know, Konrad, that your claim may not be easy because of the other driver's lack of co-operation and your lack of proof. However, I suggest that you take a leaf out of the book of all litigation solicitors:- act as if you have the most clear-cut claim possible until it starts costing you money (ie: court costs, etc) and then re-assess the situation to decide whether it's worth the risk of incurring more costs.So, what I would do in your situation is write a recorded delivery letter to the other driver's insurance company (in English will do), quoting policyholder and policy number, giving details of the accident and stating that, as insurers of the vehicle, you hold them responsible for your uninsured losses. Ask them to pay up within (for example) 28 days (which gives them time to investigate), at the expiry of which you will bring a matter in the small claims court against the driver and/or lift company.As josa said, the insurers will reject the claim if they think they possibly can. If you show them that you are adamant and that you're not going to take 'no' for an answer (even if you're pretending) you may just get somewhere. Act bullish - just like a solicitor!Good luck - I'd hate the other guys to win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josa Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 You probably should not even need to contact the French insurer - every European Insurer must provide a local agent to whom you can direct the claim and liaise - to find out the correct one contact the Motor Insurers Bureau - Linford Wood House, 6-12 Capital Drive, Milton Keynes MK14 6XT - Green Card Department. Personally I wouldn't even get into a letter writing exercise - as kizpip says just ask once and if rejected issue a small claim. If everyone who had an accident could get away with it by simply refusing to report it - who would bother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Very helpful people at MIB. Call them (01908 830001) and ask for the Cross Border Team.I recently had a reason to ask their advice after the under/un-trained call centre staff at DVLA Swansea gave me some very incorrect information.Sunday Driver [6]Since the European Accident Statement (Constat Européen d'Accident) is not used in the UK there must be many Brits that never know of it's existence. If Konrad has sufficient detail from the driver I would still press forward with his insurance company. [Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giscard Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I spoke with the helpful people at BMI. They said they would not get involved in a dispute unless the other drivers insurance company had refused to respond. In my case they apparently did but would not entertain the claim through lack of evidence. She did give me the name of the UK agent for the other drivers French insurance company. They checked their records and said that my insurance company had not gone through them but must have approached the French insurance company directly or via a subsidiary company. They asked me to send them all the information and they would re-submit the claim.However - the lady at the BMI said that the French Insurance companies will not entertain a claim unless the agreed statement of facts has been filled in - ie Gallic shrug and non! She also was sceptical about the use of the UK small claims procedure unless we had had an accident abroad with a British car, not a foreign one. She thought that previous rulings had been overturned and that it was not possible to try to claim losses through the UK system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 I understand your feelings but to be honest I don't see you have a cat in hells chance of recovering a single cent. SD summed it up in the first reply, you have no evidence that the other vehicle caused the damage. Having the other drivers name and Insurance doesn't count for much. You say he services the lift in your apartment block so you could easily know his name and insurance details are openly on display via the vignette on the car windscreen.I'm not at all sure that you could persue it through the UK small claims court but even if you could, and you won, it would be something of a pyrric victory as I don't think there is any practical method of enforcing a judgement for what, in the scheme of things, is a piffling sum, so you'd just end up out of pocket by another £75. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josa Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Well - AnOther has a view - not sure what it is based upon. I have considerable experience of these things - I am a litigation solicitor specialising in these types of case (although I don't do small claims now myself having junior staff working for me on them) - I am qualified in England, Wales and Scotland and acting throughout the UK in both jurisdictions - I am a partner in one English firm, one Scottish firm and a sole practitioner in another English firm - all of which are very successful and we win 99% of our cases - probably more! I have personally done thousands of claims over the past 15 years with a fair number of "foreign claims" - it is my job and I am pretty good at it so that is my background.The suggestion that the European case is over-ruled is simply wrong and bad information - I actually finalised a case based upon the directive yesterday!As far as no evidence is concerned - of course you have evidence - two witnesses - you and your wife - along with circumstantial - remember the Judge will decide on the balance of probabilities - ie "what is more likely"- are you seriously arguing that cases cannot be settled without independent witnesses? - I can say with some practical experience that probably most such cases only have the two drivers giving evidence and the Judge makes a decision based simply upon that which is before him/her. In this case the evidence is better than that.Enforcing a foreign Judgment - where there is an insurer - quite simple and it is a breach of statutory duty for any insurer to fail to settle a Judgment. If no insurer - slightly longer but not difficult (doing one against a German company as we speak) - the only time there is a problem is if the party has no money - not likely given the defendant in this case is an established company.Still - what do I know! I'll butt out now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 So Konrad, there is your answer, simples.Do let us know how you get on won't you [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigears Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 hiI thought small claim court judgements aren't enforceable in law. If it was me I would put it all behind me as the worry/stress of pursuing it can have a negative effect on health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 And 15 months on too, for €2000 maybe but €200 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josa Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 I know I was going to butt out but I just remembered the European Small Claims process - see http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/consumers/protection_of_consumers/l16028_en.htmBTW small claims are as enforceable as any other judgment - and actually I would also personally just let it go as not worth the hassle, but the OP said he was irritated and did we have any suggestions - this is one of his options. - goosd luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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