vice caché

[MisterC]

Hi - sorry for the long post but this is complicated!

We bought this house a year ago as a holiday home from an English owner and had a survey done. No major problems were reported. In November we had a chimney fire in our cuisiniere (we had been told it had been swept and the cuisiniere cleaned but it wasn't. Although we put chimney fire out. The floor above through which the tuyaux passed started to smoulder and we called the pompiers.

When they arrived we found that the former owner had built the chipboard flooring of the bedroom to within an inch of the tuyaux - hence the fire. If I had not caught the problem we could have been burnt in our beds. My insurance company (English) paid out.

We noticed some water penetration in January and a local French builder called and said that when the former owner had done his roof (himself) he had not used enough tiles and hence water was getting through - he had also found patches of repairs filled with mousse expansive.

We queried this with the surveyor and he said he had investigated as far as possible and there had been no sign of water penetration when he looked at it in March last year. We have now accepted an estimate from the french builder to replace the roof properly.

In addition we have a small gite which the owner had coverted from a goat barn. We saw water penetration round the chimney and one of the conditions before signing the acte de vente was that he made this good. However during the last 6 months the damp has re-appeared not only round the chikney but in two other areas so we had to use buckets! My French builder did some emergency repairs for me but he says the roof is rotten.

We have now moved here full time and I am just a little miffed both with the bodging owner and the surveyor. This is going to cost big bucks! The surveyor said I might have a case of "vice caché" but ihave heard this is difficult to prove and also must be done very soon after buying - as these problems have ocurred over 9/12 months do we have any recourse

Thanks for reading this epistle!

[Panda]

Hello

I dont think a poor roof can be classed as a vice cache and especially not as you obviously had some discussion about the state of it.  When he did the repairs you could have raised something at that point but I dont think 9 months on you can, just my opinion really. 

As for the surveyor he seemes to have missed loads of issues, I would be pursuing him if none of this was highlighted in his report, it's his job to check the state of the property.  The previous owner being bad at DIY is not uncommon after all and to prove vice cache it has to be an intended deception I believe.

P

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Several points arising from this post for the benefit of others facing a similar situation:

1. Beware DIY renovations by owner/vendors. French buyers will generally not accept them, preferring instead work carried out by registered artisans and carrying the appropriate insurances and guarantees.

2. You agree to buy a property 'in the condition in which you find it' thus absolving the vendor from virtually all responsibility.  You would probably feel more comfortable yourself as a vendor with this clause in the contract, and it is very much up to the buyer to satisfy him/herself regarding everything from planning to plumbing! 

3. Surveyors' reports invariably contain numerous get-outs, such as not gaining access to particular parts of the building etc, which tend to lessen the value of their reports.

4. In case of doubt, best to get it sorted out at the offer stage and get anything written into the 'compromis de vente' as a condition of purchase ('clause suspensive').

Not much comfort to Mister C I am afraid but property buying is invariably hazardous. My sympathies.

P-D de R.

[Swissie]

I recently helped a friend with the paperwork regarding the purchase of an apartment- and I questioned the clause regarding vice-caché, which basically absolved the vendor from any responsibility in the future. The solicitor assured me that it was how every contract is worded and could not be changed. I feel sorry also for buyers from British sellors who have renovated with British style plumbing and electrics!

[mint]

As I now feel like some "veteran" househunter (after several months and dozens of houses), I feel happier, since reading this post, about rejecting all the houses we have done.

It's not just the house itself either, you need to drive around the area and satisfy yourself about buildings, installations, etc. near the house and that could affect value and the pleasure or otherwise of living there.

If in doubt, ask questions, lots of them and, even if you don't get clear answers, the very avoidance on the part of the owners or the agents of providing answers should ring alarm bells or, at least, make you proceed a bit more cautiously.

As well as looking at the immediate vicinity, find out about any new building work, road by-passes, etc that might be planned for the area.

Imagine, you think you have bought the house of your dreams and then you find out that the new sewage works are going to be sited within sniffing distance!

Sometimes, I think I should write a book about all the horrors I have, so far, managed to avoid.  Mind you, you could exercise the utmost care and still be "caught out".

The OP, for example, despite engaging a surveyor, is now having problems[:(] 

 

[AnOther]

The problem with these sort of situations where culpability is not clear cut is that pursuing legal remedies, with absolutely no guarantee of success, can easily end up costing you much more than putting the problem right at your own cost in the first place, not to mention being in limbo possibly for years and the stress which will go with it, so I would think long and hard before going down that road.

[MisterC]

You have all confirmed what we thought might be the case. Thanks for the help though. We'll just have to bite on the bullet!

[Polly]

I wonder what sort of 'surveyor' you used?

You haven't given us any info on this, nor on the terms or conditions of his/her contract of engagement with you, which you should have agreed in writing.

A 'survey' can mean many things, it depends who you commissioned and what precisely you asked them to do.

P-D R says"Surveyors' reports invariably contain numerous get-outs, such as not

gaining access to particular parts of the building etc, which tend to

lessen the value of their reports". To the surveyor who cannot get access to a roof space or who has no permission to rip up floorboards or remover plasterboard these clauses give vital protection: you don't have X-ray eyes, neither does your surveyor!

[Swissie]

This was made very clear by the surveyor who prepared the report made for my friend's apartment. It was clearly stated that he could not be responsible for areas he could not access.

[mint]

It's also the case that existing owners will not allow the surveyor, for example, to remove carpets and floor boards to inspect the condition of floors.

And it's not been unknown for people to place large items of furniture in place to cover defects!

Then, you get the fussy owners who decorate every year and cover up damp patches and what have you.

Despite all that, a good, conscientious and experienced surveyor can look at the structure and identify areas of possible problems, even if he can't physically see them.

For example, a deflection and hogging of roof planes, uneven ridge line, etc could mean problems with the internal roof structure and a surveyor could say, for example, I couldn't have access to the roof space but an exterior examination points to potential problems.

After that, it's up to the buyers to persuade the owners to allow more invasive investigation or indeetd not to proceed.

[pachapapa]

Too true, I passed over Anne Hathaway's Cottage, nasty ridge lines.[:)]

P.S. Most oak roof timbers in french peasant house were built with green timber which adjusted to the roof load whilst maturing.

[mint]

Pacha, please don't say "nasty ridge lines" in that tone of voice!  It sounds like nasty Visible Panty Lines ....LOL

But aren't these wildly crooked roof lines and planes supposed to add picturesque-ness and character?  At least they do until the water comes in and you cannot re-tile readily because the tiles cannot be persuaded to lie flat on uneven surfaces.[blink]

[Cendrillon]

Did anyone see Sarah Beeny's latest program last night? Goodness knows why the couple bought the house in such bad state, this was in Nothamptonshire and I cannot believe they would have bought it without a decent survey.

[Patf]

Yes we saw it. There was certainly nothing caché about those vices.

[PaulT]

[quote user="Cendrillon"]Did anyone see Sarah Beeny's latest program last night? Goodness knows why the couple bought the house in such bad state, this was in Nothamptonshire and I cannot believe they would have bought it without a decent survey.
[/quote]

And the other night there was a repeat of a 'Homes Under the Hammer' where this young couple decided to try their hand at property development. The house they bought at auction was of non standard construction. The presenter asked them if they knew it was such and whether they had had a survey. They replied that it was an electrician who told them and no, they had not had a survey.

No doubt they did not have the skills to 'suss out' the place themselves and decided that the expense of a surveyor was not worth it.

The problem of a survey can be the get out caveats that are put in to it which can basically come down to paying for something that may not be correct or have not inspected items because there was no access.

I believe that you should have a good poke around. If the owners object to you say, lifting a carpet, then walk away. What ever you do leave the rose tinted glasses at home and view on the basis that the owner has something to hide.

Paul

[Will]

A not uncommon French attitude seems to be that if a house is still standing, particularly after a couple of centuries, there can't be much wrong with it. And if it was to fall down, the insurance would sort it out. [:)]

Having said that though, vice caché is notoriously awkward to establish. You would need to prove beyond doubt that the specific faults existed when you viewed the house, the seller was fully aware of them, and deliberately concealed them from you. And even if you think you can prove those things, there is no guarantee that legal action would succeed, particularly considering the time and cost involved.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="PaulT"]

[quote user="Cendrillon"]Did anyone see Sarah Beeny's latest program last night? Goodness knows why the couple bought the house in such bad state, this was in Nothamptonshire and I cannot believe they would have bought it without a decent survey.

[/quote]

And the other night there was a repeat of a 'Homes Under the Hammer' where this young couple decided to try their hand at property development. The house they bought at auction was of non standard construction. The presenter asked them if they knew it was such and whether they had had a survey. They replied that it was an electrician who told them and no, they had not had a survey.

No doubt they did not have the skills to 'suss out' the place themselves and decided that the expense of a surveyor was not worth it.

The problem of a survey can be the get out caveats that are put in to it which can basically come down to paying for something that may not be correct or have not inspected items because there was no access.

I believe that you should have a good poke around. If the owners object to you say, lifting a carpet, then walk away. What ever you do leave the rose tinted glasses at home and view on the basis that the owner has something to hide.

Paul

[/quote]

I liked the surveyors tip on Homes Under the Hammer, a surveyor just needs a Chubb key and a Yale key, you use one to jab in to rendering and plaster and the other to poke into wood - if either goes into 'soft' material, you have a problem !