Tax on Planning permission?

[just john]

Having recently been granted planning permission, I've now received a demand from Tresor Public for Tax Departmentale pour le CAUE and Tax Departmentale des espaces naturels sensibles amounting to over €800 over two years[:-))] I had not been aware of these taxes and wonder if these sums are due whether or not a development goes ahead or not? Has anyone experience of these?

 

[pachapapa]

And the TLE![6]

http://carrefourlocal.senat.fr/vie_locale/cas_pratiques/calcul_taxe_locale_equipement/index.html

[pachapapa]

The TLE in gourgé is zero %  this is set at a municipal level; however the TDENS in deux-sèvres is higher at 1,2 % than in 24 at 0,5 %.

VILLE.........Gourgé
 
TAUX de TLE......zero %
 
TAUX de TDENS......1,2 %
 
TAUX de TDCAUE.....0,3 %

Click on the map in right margin.

http://www.serenis-consulting.fr/

[idun]

It has been mentioned on here before and the trouble is that no one ever mentions this and it comes as a shock.

If I had asked once, I had asked a hundred times if I had to budget for any other charges/taxes and been told by everyone I asked, NON!

I think I cried when this bill came it was about three times that and in 1983 was a lot of money. They do let you off taxe fonciere for the first couple of years after construction, check up though, but if my old memory is not playing tricks then that is the case. So maybe it won't work out too badly if you are paying Peter instead of Paul... it did not help us that much, as our bill was so big.

[pachapapa]

So now it's final those concertina pool covers qualify.[;-)]

Actualités

14 février 2011

Les abris télescopiques sont-ils soumis à la TLE ?

CE (9/10 SRR) 30/12/2009, rep n° 286556

 

De telles constructions sont soumises à une autorisation de construire, par voie de conséquence elles sont assujetties aux taxes d’urbanisme et ce même si ces éléments ne représentent pas des structures pérennes.

[idun]

My mouth dropped when I read that. When I first heard people going mad about 'stealth taxes' in the UK I used to tell them that the french had been doing it for years and were experts.

Even for France this seems OTT to be honest, and I have never owned a pool and am never likely to.

[Poppy]

Totally agree Idun. We have given up doing any improvements to the property because we can't afford the resulting taxes.

We were also going to build a nice garage or carport but are now using a tatty car cover which doesn't look good for neighbours or in our area precious tourists.

We will in future spend our euros on good food, wine and whatever we want and if the outside of the house suffers !!!!!!!!!

[virginia.c]

So, is this tax payable if you do not go ahead with the planned works? I'm confused!

[tinabee]

[quote user="virginia.c"]So, is this tax payable if you do not go ahead with the planned works? I'm confused![/quote]

 

AFAIK (but not certain) the taxes are attached to the issuance of the planning permission, not the commencement or completion of the works. So my assumption would be that they have to be paid.

 

[LEO]

We were not billed until after two years when , the works were completed. (1200 euros I think).

[virginia.c]

I realise that logic has little place in French tax (or anything else) law, but how can this tax be payable BEFORE works are undertaken?

[idun]

IF I got this bill and had not even started the work and was not going to then I would send a letter to the tax office and tell them that they could come and check and could they please cancel this bill.

In my area we would see new builds go up or extensions be done and the crepi not put on. And places would stay like this for years. It was a good way of keeping local taxes down until the work was all done. They send out forms asking if the work is finished and if the crepi was not on one says non. I do believe that after a certain number years, then the tax office would adjust the tax to count it as a finished building, or at least that was what my local planning office told me about 4 years ago. 

[just john]

[quote user="LEO"]We were not billed until after two years when , the works were completed. (1200 euros I think).
[/quote]

What you say Leo makes sense and is my understanding that these taxes are on the basis of a project being completed; so do not become due until after that, (separate from foncier or habitation taxes which would follow).

However there is no mention in the avis d'imposition of what need there is to notify completion or how to cancel the invoice if not completed, so I wondered if anyone has experience of receiving planning and not proceeding with the project?

[tinabee]

[quote user="just john "]

[quote user="LEO"]We were not billed until after two years when , the works were completed. (1200 euros I think).
[/quote]

What you say Leo makes sense and is my understanding that these taxes are on the basis of a project being completed; so do not become due until after that, (separate from foncier or habitation taxes which would follow).

However there is no mention in the avis d'imposition of what need there is to notify completion or how to cancel the invoice if not completed, so I wondered if anyone has experience of receiving planning and not proceeding with the project?

[/quote]

I am afraid not. The planning permission clearly states that the taxes are attached to the permission. Generally they are paid in 2 installments, the first 18 months after the permission was granted and the second 18 months after that. There is no link whatsoever with the completion of the build.

[andyh4]

[quote user="virginia.c"]I realise that logic has little place in French tax (or anything else) law, but how can this tax be payable BEFORE works are undertaken?[/quote]

 

Because it is a tax on the planning permission not on the work.  The tax on the work will come in the form of increase TdH and TF and that does depend on the work eing completed.

[tinabee]

The TDCAU funds a free planning advisory service - available to everyone, so it makes sense that it is connected to the planning permission

[Simon]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

The TLE in gourgé is zero %  this is set at a municipal level; however the TDENS in deux-sèvres is higher at 1,2 % than in 24 at 0,5 %.

VILLE.........Gourgé
 
TAUX de TLE......zero %
 
TAUX de TDENS......1,2 %
 
TAUX de TDCAUE.....0,3 %

Click on the map in right margin.

http://www.serenis-consulting.fr/

[/quote]

Thanks for the link.  I'm shortly going to be applying for planning permission.

In my area TDENS is 0.8% and TDCAUE is 0.3%. 

Question is, percentage of what?  Is there a way in advance to calculate the tax which will have to be paid?

Thanks

[just john]

[quote user="tinabee"]The TDCAU funds a free planning advisory service - available to everyone, so it makes sense that it is connected to the planning permission[/quote]

Quite so Tinabee; though the sting is that no initial mention was made of these charges or the level that they would be set when applying for the permis, I specifically asked the Mairie for details of charges and was told there were non except for assainissement of about 23€. Thanks for your reply, having revisited my permis I did indeed find page 1 & 2 stuck together (damn) and page 2 points out that this work gives rise to the payment of local taxes to fund the Board of Architecture, Planning and Environment CAUE and departmental tax on natural areas TDENS sensitive to the benefit of these organizations . Pity the shock wasn't lessened by some forewarning though![:$]

Incidently my area in Charente are - TAUX de TLE......zero % - TAUX de TDENS......1 % - TAUX de TDCAUE.....0,3 %
whatever the percentages stand for eludes me, but mine calculate out to €2183 and €19,700 which doesn't seem to relate to anything like land or property values?
 Payments are after 1year and balance after 2 years, decision was given in Nov 2010 with payments due 60% in Nov 2011 and the remaining 40% Nov 2012.[:@]

 

[crossy67]

What are the percentages based on though? Are they based on value of work undertaken based on Artisan rates? 

Would I need permission to install ensuite salle de bain?

[just john]

[quote user="crossy67"]What are the percentages based on though? Are they based on value of work undertaken based on Artisan rates?  [/quote]

Wish I knew, and up front! I do feel since applying through my Mairie, they could have been better informed about future taxes and relayed the information.

[quote user="crossy67"]Would I need permission to install ensuite salle de bain?[/quote]

Unless it involves changes to the exterior (like a window) or structurally, I would say not,

 

[idun]

But as I said Just John, they would not know that you didn't know about these taxes and that isn't their fault. 

[mint]

[quote user="just john "]

Incidently my area in Charente are - TAUX de TLE......zero % - TAUX de TDENS......1 % - TAUX de TDCAUE.....0,3 %
whatever the percentages stand for eludes me, but mine calculate out to €2183 and €19,700 which doesn't seem to relate to anything like land or property values?
 Payments are after 1year and balance after 2 years, decision was given in Nov 2010 with payments due 60% in Nov 2011 and the remaining 40% Nov 2012.[:@]

 

[/quote]

Not a pleasant surprise, poor JJ!  But, plenty of time to save up before having to stump up.

Still, the fee could have bought the gold-plated taps for the principal bathroom?[:(]

[Simon]

JustJohn,  your figures of 2183 and 19,700 euros don't seem to add up in relation to the percentages quoted.  Are you saying that you have to pay 21,883 euros tax on a planning application?

Yours worried,

Simon

[tinabee]

[quote user="crossy67"]What are the percentages based on though? Are they based on value of work undertaken based on Artisan rates? 

Would I need permission to install ensuite salle de bain?
[/quote]

 

The method of calculation can be found here

http://carrefourlocal.senat.fr/vie_locale/cas_pratiques/calcul_taxe_locale_equipement/index.html

There are a number of variables but the key one is the size of property (SHON) built.

[just john]

[quote user="idun"]But as I said Just John, they would not know that you didn't know about these taxes and that isn't their fault. [/quote]

It seems obtuse not inform planning applicants of a subsequent planning tax, especially when asked about charges for the application. I was not expecting the tax since few years ago I obtained planning permission on a larger renovation, without any planning tax, this is for a new build, perhaps that's the difference.

[quote user="Simon"] JustJohn, your figures of 2183 and 19,700 euros don't seem to add up in relation to the percentages quoted.  Are you saying that you have to pay 21,883 euros tax on a planning application? [/quote]

No simon, tax is - TAUX de TLE......zero % -
TAUX de TDENS......1 % - €65,500 = €655 payable
TAUX de TDCAUE.....0,3 %  €65,666 =  €197 payable
whatever the figures stand for still eludes me, but calculate out to €852 payable 

[quote user="sweet 17"] Still, the fee could have bought the gold-plated taps for the principal bathroom?[:(] [/quote]

I've already got the taps Sweet, though I went for polished platinium, (looks a bit like chrome[;-)])