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What are these people on ?


Bugsy

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So someone has decided that it would be a good idea to fit speed limiters to motorcycles in the UK. Not a reduction in bhp like the rest of europe (who needs more than 106bhp anyway) but a limiter that will not allow a vehicle to exceed a limit. This would ensure that in the event of a potentially dangerous situation, the rider would not be able to accelerate out of danger. It's just completely crazy.

It's not just bikes either, trials are being carried out now on cars.

MCN details.............................[:@]

 

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Nanny state bullsh*t if I ever heard  it.   Anybody who has ever ridden a motorcycle will know that automatic speed limiters are likely to kill more bikers than they save.  I guess that the automation would need to be GPS based......which means that the state could also see exactly where you are all the time.......all a bit Orwellian for me.......
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A bit of the usual sensational reporting, methinks.  MCN bleating about speed reduction, but did you notice their side bar news headline "193mph MV F4 on the way"...[;-)]

This is from the actual Select Committee [url=http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmtran/264/264.pdf]report[/url]:

Motorcycle accident rates are far too high. They have been for ten years. It is time to consider radical action to tackle this problem. A case was made to the Committee for limiting the speed of the more powerful motorcycles, though some technical issues still need to be resolved. The Government's work on Intelligent Speed Adaptation is encouraging. We recommend that the Government commission a companion piece of research on the viability of introducing speed limiters on motorcycles in order to stimulate a sensible debate of the options.

Some other interesting conclusions/recommendations:

...we commend the Government for drawing the industry into the process and recommend that they continue to work with the industry to take the Strategy forward.

...overall, we think that the targets set in the Strategy are sensible and we support them.

...we welcome the overhaul of driver learning and training promised in the road safety review. We hope the Government will include motorcycling as part of its education programme for young people and would expect the Government to give a very good reason if it is not.

...better training and sensible access to higher powered vehicles will help to improve rider safety. Although the Third European Driving Licence may not be the best possible permutation of staged access, we believe that access to higher powered motorcycles should only come with experience.

...the balance of evidence suggests that the Government is right to revise its guidance to local authorities on the use of bus lanes. We see no reason why a more permissive attitude should not be taken by local authorities when deciding whether to allow motorcycles to use bus lanes.

...Government statistics show that for many of the classes of pollutant, motorcycles are often worse than cars. If the Government wishes to encourage motorcycling (as part of wider strategies to tackle congestion and social exclusion) then it must support the development of cleaner vehicles.

...there clearly remains a significant problem, however, with motorcycles being untaxed and uninsured  -  29.6% of motorcycles evading VED (National Audit Office) and approximately 150,000 potentially uninsured riders (Motor Insurers Information centre).

The report also drew attention to the variation in police enforcement between individual forces - somehat at odds with the usual mantra of "there should be more police so they can exercise discretion".

 

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I know what you mean Dave but the point I was specifically making was why a speed limiter rather than a reduction of bhp.

The UK is still, unfortunately, the domain of the few stupid riders wrecking it for the majority. Now where have I heard that before ?

Who needs more than 106 bhp.............................

 

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"If the Government wishes to encourage

motorcycling (as part of wider strategies to tackle congestion and

social exclusion) then it must support the development of cleaner

vehicles."

Can someone please explain where "social exclusion" fits into encouraging motorcycling.

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The report should not be taken too literally as it is a little late in the day.  the issue was done to death by government sometime ago while this report was in the making.  Conclusion, and for some of the reasons stated here already, was that it would do more to compromise safety than assist it.  As far as the government is concerned it is a non-starter, mind you, not sure we can trust the Govt, but thats another thread.  Many organisations (safety) lobbied the govt in an attempt to get the proposals thrown out, and on this occasion it appreared the govt listened.  Reason it has raised its head again, is that the motorcycle element formed only a small part of the overall report, but has been jumped upon again by MCN who are still in their lethargic mode as the Bike Racing Season has only just started, and the journos have not yet got into serious issue reporting mode.
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[quote user="Bugbear"]

I know what you mean Dave but the point I was specifically making was why a speed limiter rather than a reduction of bhp.

The UK is still, unfortunately, the domain of the few stupid riders wrecking it for the majority. Now where have I heard that before ?

Who needs more than 106 bhp.............................

[/quote]

Gary, I noted your point about the bhp and it's certainly valid.  That said, the little GS500 is only 54bhp but it'll easily break all the speed limits.  I suspect the speed limiter issue is a red herring - an option that the Select Committee was able to latch onto and turn into a recommendation.

As you say, most riders would say they are "fairly" responsible in terms of speed, but many are not.  One of the readers' comments on the MCN website was "they should fit speed limiters to all cars and let us get on with having fun".  Sound familiar...?

 

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

As you say, most riders would say they are "fairly" responsible in terms of speed, but many are not.  One of the readers' comments on the MCN website was "they should fit speed limiters to all cars and let us get on with having fun".  Sound familiar...?

[/quote]

Very...............................[:)]

 

You need to change your avatar........................[:D]

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There are two types of speed limiter in discussion. Firstly was the system run through a GPS or similar, which prevented a vehicle from exceeding any speed limit, and secondly an overall speed limiting system for the more powerful bikes. Much like the restrictions used on mopeds, and the under 33hp models.

Does anyone really need a vehicle which can travel in excess of 130mph, given that there is no-where in the UK where you could safely use it?

Of course, the issue would be, what top speed had they in mind?

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[quote user="Brilec"]

Of course, the issue would be, what top speed had they in mind?

[/quote]

Would you believe 65mph........................I kid you not

And yet it's OK for a 'policeman to drive at 165mph, testing a new car.

Morons..............................[:@]

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I regularly drive at or slightly above the speed limit on the N109 going into and out of Montpellier.  I have never overtaken a motorcycle, except once.  I remember it, as it was so strange to actually be going faster than a motorcycle, even though I drive at or above the speed limit.  That means that every single motorcycle but one, in five years of fairly regular trips, in all weathers, was going over the speed limit and often WAY over.  I find that interesting.  If speed limiters don't work, and the radar can't pick up the number plates, how is it that motocyclists can be taught that they are a motor vehicle and should obey the speed limits?  Good question? 

Maybe I am unaware of the rules of the road in France, since I have never read them, perhaps motorcyclists are exempt from the speed limits, which are not taking into account the fact that motorcyclists are all excellent pilots and their bikes are always in good shape and they simply can go faster than anyone else, and furthermore they should be allowed to do so.

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[quote user="TreizeVents"]

Maybe I am unaware of the rules of the road in France, since I have never read them, perhaps motorcyclists are exempt from the speed limits, which are not taking into account the fact that motorcyclists are all excellent pilots and their bikes are always in good shape and they simply can go faster than anyone else, and furthermore they should be allowed to do so.

[/quote]

You are of course correct, we are exempt from speed limits and can go faster than cars especially in traffic jams. What you seem to forget is that any car driver is competent after a year on the road, but most mature bikers only consider themselves competent after at least 5 years riding. We always strive to improve so that we can aviod car drivers who admit that they have never studied the rules of the road!

The other think to remember is that most mature bikers are also car drivers, and I believe that they are better car drivers than the average due to the biking experience.

Our bikes are in good shape due to the fact that a car is a mode of transport for a car only driver, wheras our bikes are our babies and are very well maintained, especially us BMW bikers. Comment from bugbear is due on that one.

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Whilst I don't ride a motorcycle anymore I believe that ALL car drivers should experience motorcycling early in their driving life. It definitely make you a better driver, more attuned to whats going on, more aware of the stupid things other road users can do (and will do), more aware of how the road surface affects your vehicle etc etc.

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[quote user="Bob T"]

You are of course correct, we are exempt from speed limits and can go faster than cars especially in traffic jams. What you seem to forget is that any car driver is competent after a year on the road, but most mature bikers only consider themselves competent after at least 5 years riding. We always strive to improve so that we can aviod car drivers who admit that they have never studied the rules of the road!

The other think to remember is that most mature bikers are also car drivers, and I believe that they are better car drivers than the average due to the biking experience.

Our bikes are in good shape due to the fact that a car is a mode of transport for a car only driver, wheras our bikes are our babies and are very well maintained, especially us BMW bikers. Comment from bugbear is due on that one.

[/quote]

As a cyclist and car driver I agree with you totally.  That is, I

think that every driver (motorcycle or a car) should ride a bike so they could

understand cyclists a bit more and trajectories on corners.  Mind you, it

takes along time to learn to ride a bicycle skilfully too, much less to learn

to maintain it properly (most people don't).  Especially on descents or

riding in a pack a few inches from someone doing 40-50kph.   I sympathise

with your love for the bike, as some of our bikes are our babies too,

especially at the price of decent bike.  I LOVE my Colnago.  We

should have a little race down a hill someday, one with hairpins, with me on

the bicycle and you on the motorcycle.  Ever watch the Tour?  Mind

you we don't have the same problem with speed limits on the motorway, which is

what I wondered about.  Except at the end of sprints in a race, when our

lads definitely break the 50kph limit in towns.  With police protection of

course.

 

But I still wonder how to educate motorcyclists to not speed on the road. 

I appreciate your joke [;-)] about motorcycles being exempt from all speed

limits, but having checked the road code, I didn't notice this.  How CAN

you educate bikers without a governor on maximum speed?  That was my

original question.  I was serious.[Www]

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[quote user="TreizeVents"]
  Mind you, it takes along time to learn to ride a bicycle skilfully too, much less to learn to maintain it properly (most people don't). 

[/quote]

Half an hour, at least...................................[:)]

Then  bit longer to learn how to;

Ride through a Red Light

Ride across a pedestrian crossing

Ride the wrong way in One-way streets

Ride in pedestrian Precincts

Squeeze through narrow gaps hitting as many wing mirrors as you can

Ride on the footpath (as Dick said)

Ignore every road sign known to man

etc, etc..............................................

 

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I don't really care what speed big bikes with >ahem< mature riders can do - they can probably handle it. However, I've seen the aftermath of two bike accidents in the last few years where excess speed was a real contributory factor. The riders were going too fast on urban roads and both t-boned cars - and in neither case could they have seen that the car was there until it was too late (one one a bend, the other just after the brow of a hill). Both drivers were young, and in my opinion were riding beyond their level of skill and competence. I don't think a speed limiter would have made any difference, though, after all the overall effect of hitting a solid object is much the same at 70 as at 90.

The argument that power is needed to get out of dangerous situations is true, so again power may equal safety. I certainly appreciate being able to accelerate away from things, and it is safer.

For me the real dangers on two wheels are cyclists (crazy people with an appalling attitude in so many cases) and scooters, often in the hands of kids. Yes, it may be fun to wheelie away from the traffic lights, but if you come off (with no safety gear apart from a cheap helmet) hitting the road is going to hurt and doing it in traffic means you may well connect with another vehicle, and some of them are quite large and spiky. And red lights are there for a reason - never seen a big bike jump a red light. And realise that in a car I do have a blind spot, and I may be able to hear you, but I can't see you - it is as important for bikers to have driven cars as for car drivers to have some experience on bikes (mine was a 250cc James about 40 years ago...) Again, a training rather than a speed issue.

What you lot do in your rideouts looks great fun - except for the rain - and on the open road you can indulge yourselves a bit. I hope this daft law isn't passed, or if it is, it is a power limitation rather than a speed limiter.

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Just as I supposed you were not talking about youth on small noisy bikes in cities, I was not talking about kids riding around on BMXs or VTTs in cities.  Can you guys get serious?  Have you no idea about serious riding on a velo?  Do ANY of you ride a bike seriously.  Half an hour indeed!

OK, OK, I agree that all men over 57 who ride BMWs can go as fast as they want, and are in total control of their bikes, have good judgement all the time, don't drink and drive, have mastered all the skills needed for riding in all weather and that the oppressive fools who wrote speed limits did not mean "them" when they wrote the laws.  But what if they are under 53, or have been drinking or are riding Hondas?  And how can you tell, other than the pot bellies on the old guys if they don't cover them up with leathers.

Anyway, I love the bikers who ride too fast (young and without skills of course).  I call them "organ donors", and lump them with small cars filled with youth.  How would you stop THEM from speeding?

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  Well, I've enjoyed reading your comments, and agree that all have valid points.  Myself , I think 50 mph max would be a good compromise . Firstly , on future rideouts , it would level the playing field for us less competent riders to keep up with the likes of Bugbear , and secondly avoid stopping every 10 minutes to wait for SD to catch up and relight his pipe . It would also allow us to do the cyclists thing , bunch up , ride 3 abreast , weave from side to side , hold a conversation and look no further ahead than the bloke's rump 1metre from your nose . Or we can be left alone to continue riding safely ( speed irrelevant ) , annoy no one and keep out of harms way .

        Regards socket

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As a lady biker I have to say I think packs of male cyclists are a particularly serious hazard. I have so nearly come to grief trying to get past them on more than one occasion. Do you realise how difficult it is to ride at excessive speeds while trying to pick out the best lycra encased bottom in a pack of 12 or 15!! I rest my case.

WG

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And that takes me back to the Tommy Cooper topic of a week or two back.

"Man went in to the psychiatrists, dressed only in cling film. 'I can see your nuts' the doctor said"

Whatever rules or limits are introduced there will always be a***holes who flout them. I agree that cyclists tend to be about the least law-abiding, most arrogant, and least considerate of the lot, at least in my experience (and we are not talking 9-year-olds here), but there are plenty of idiot bikers, car drivers, truck drivers and pedestrians out there too.

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