Wood Finishes

[Dick Smith]

I realise that most of you probably know this already, but I'm having fun finding out!

Following some good advice on the Box Joint thread, I have spent some time in m'shed this evening playing, sorry, experimenting with finishes. Bear in mind I am working with UK bought (expensive) softwoods, which tend to be very pale and have not much figure, and materials laying about on shelves.

First of all, following Jon's advice, I used sanding sealer first, and rubbed down with very fine abrasives (actually an old and worn out foam block). This gave a superb smoothness.

The wood dye I used was American Walnut, simply because there was an unopened tin on the shelf. I don't know why, I don't like walnut (dye) very much... I rubbed it on with kitchen paper.

On untreated wood it was a harsh brown colour, but over sanding sealer it was a much more harmonious, mellow shade. I then tried a single coat of polyurethane varnish (all I had) over it. This gave a lot of life to the colour, and the lighter shade (sealed) now looks much more like mellow pine than the Ronseal mellow pine varnish - much less orange.

So that was good, it's certainly a combination I would use again.

I tried the water-based varnish which had been such a problem on the kitchen cupboard, over sanding sealer, and it transformed both the performance (much less tendency to run) and the colour, which was even and natural looking. Again, in the right setting it could look very good.

I tried some Danish Oil over sanded bare wood, as nice as I remembered it, but not very dark. Probably too blonde for much use.

Qs - can I use oil or wax over sealer/dye? I don't seem to have any wax in England at the moment, or at least not that I know where it is...

I used a Colron dye - are Liberon better?

I also found a couple of neanderthal wooden planes, one a routing plane the other a 1/2" beading plane. Now that could be an obsession...  If only I had a slipstone...

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="Dick Smith"] Probably too blonde for much use.

[/quote]

That's not a very nice thing to say Dick!

[Dick Smith]

Would (ho ho) you have preferred 'blond'?

[Dave&Olive]

hi Dick no one seems to want to reply. seems they are all chatting the women up in the other posting !!!! so it looks like me and you again.

so... first off I don not like sanding sealer ,it leaves you with a soft easy scratch finish ,tried it and not again

The word " varnish " is worse than the "F" word , please do not say it or use it again!!!

you should be only using 3 types of dye , water based for soft wood, like the liberon pallette dyes, spirit dyes for hard wood and oil based for cherry.combination ones are not for pro`s .so don not expect a pro finish from these.

put the water based ones on with a brush lash it on and leave for 10-20 mins ,then wipe off with a cloth to even out the colour. but you will find a dry cloth takes more off when you start than a wet one so damp it first with the stain ,leave it to dry 24 hrs , ish . then take off nibbs with a " green pad " , the type the O.H uses to clean the pans , less aggressive than wire wool . and repeat the process .

now you can put on your finish , sanding sealer , yuk .

dannish oil , satin finish ,but depends on how many coats

finishing oil ..gloss finish .but you can knock this back with the green pad and then apply polish to take away the stark look but still keep the hard wearing finish .

the list goes on and on ,best thing you can do is when you make something ask again , whats the best finish for this ...to use in these conditions

   dave

[Dick Smith]

Yes, good to get back to a sensible thread! One that does what it says on the tin.

I'm still not sure about sanding sealer. My wood guru (our fantastic woodwork teacher) uses it and recommends it on softwoods, especially pine. Apart from anything else it evens out the porousness of the wood, so that stains and varnishes give a more even finish. No good at all with oil, though.

My quick experiment did make a lot of difference, and to be honest I can't see anything wrong with it, although I wouldn't use it on hardwoods, they deserve an oil finish.

I'll try brushing on the stain (I haven't picked up any Liberon yet, but I've got some old Colron). I'll try a Danish oil over it - would I have to reapply the oil later? If so, would a wax be a better idea?

Have a look at this thread on the UKWorkshops forum:

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14455&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Anyway, today I've been practicing cutting housings for a shelf unit I'm making. Only a complete dunce would try to get an accurate cut using the flat side of the router base...  Obvious, when you think about it, that's why there's a round side! Oh, and the mess you can make squaring up the ends with a blunt chisel.  Still, live and learn. Tomorrow we start the real thing.

[Dave&Olive]

hi Dick you are aboutish the same age as me, if your woodwork teacher said use sanding sealer it must be at least 40years out of date?

colron do not do water based stains , it might say on the tin it is but read the small print and it is not . London buses have TYPHOO tea plastered over the back of them ,but they don`t sell it .

 if sanding sealer seals the wood how can you stain the wood after ? you are only staining the sealer !! the secret is to stain the wood then lock it in , but it will still darken at least 3 shades with time nomatter what .

    dave

[Dick Smith]

Dave wrote:

hi Dick you are aboutish the same age as me, if your woodwork teacher said use sanding sealer it must be at least 40years out of date?

'Our' woodwork teacher at school! Though he is pretty old... Old enough to have done a 7-year apprenticeship.

I didn't read the small print, wrong glasses, but I'll get some Liberon tomorrow, although you do get a stain effect over sealer, it is just less. It really doesn't look too bad!

What do you use to lock the stain?

[Dave&Olive]

ps

   make a jig to cut dado`s with a router easy ,just screw some wood together the same distance apart as your biggest guide bush at 90 degrees you will be spot on every time

         dave

[Dave&Olive]

the finnish locks in the stain

[Dick Smith]

   "make a jig to cut dado`s with a router easy ,just screw some wood together the same distance apart as your biggest guide bush at 90 degrees you will be spot on every time"

I used a straightedge clamp, but I agree, using the bush would have been easier, but I need to see the end of the trench, which I can't with the bush in place. I think Trend actually notes the distances from the centre of the cut to the various bushes in their literature.

Quotes don't seem to be working properly this evening!

[Dick Smith]

Dave (especially) and others - what about this simple idea?

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/tips_2.html

Any of you use anything similar?

[Chris Head]

Some thing similar Dick, if I have a row of housings to cut for multiple shelves I'll cut the initial two slots, then make a batten to the width of the first slots/housings and screw that to 10mm MDF (as Wealdon say, at exactly 90 degrees), working out the spacing of the shelves and making the jig to the appropriate size. I prefer to plunge through the jig so the router is firmly seated, rater than using one edge as a guide, this eliminates and room for the router to wander when cutting. If the shelf edges are to be seen then it's sliding dovetails.

By the way, check out Wealdons linen fold cutters for profiling door fronts. I sort of think I like them, feedback would be appreciated....are they naff?

[Dick Smith]

Sliding dovetails may be a few weeks off, accurate stopped housings will be an achievement...

How do you arrange for accurate cutting of stopped housings? My first idea was to cut to within 5mm or so and then finish off with a sharp chisel, rather than notch the shelves. Gives me more control.

I've looked at the linen folds, and after getting a headache working out how to use them, I was impressed. In the right place they would look good, but the question is how many right places are there? Perhaps on a door front on a small cupboard in a darkish wood? I knew someone who had them on his interior doors (rather nice Victorian 4-storey town house in Clapham) but I think they may have been pressed, as he also had bunches of grapes and cariyads (is that the right word) holding jugs of wine...

He was very handy and replaced some damaged ones by casting in resin and sawdust from moulds made from the originals. He also made his own decorative plaster cornices, so not your average DIYer!

[Dick Smith]

The housing jig worked a treat, I actually bought and sharpened a new chisel for the job and it was worth the bother.

I made the jig big enough to cut housings on both uprights at the same time, and just took it slowly. Very pleased, as it's the first time I've done it.

Julie wants a wax finish, so she agrees with you two!

[Chris Head]

YEEHAA Dick, onward and upward! Well done!

[Dick Smith]

Yeah, except I've suddenly got an urge to buy a new plane and learn how to use it properly - or refurbish an old Stanley I think I got from my father. And the thought of making my own workshop storage drawers and cupboards.

This could be a very dangerous move in terms of my bank balance and general sanity...

But thanks for the encouragement! Appreciated.

[Chris Head]

Ok the bank balance might suffer a bit but so much can be done with so little. Think about the joints you'll need for the various projects, they'll boil down to just a few, mortice and tenon, t&g, and perhaps dovetail for the more formal work. Square edging of boards is really important and can be done quickly with nigh on perfect results everytime using a simple technique,a good 1/2" router is a must, a few simple cutters, some 10mm MDF offcuts and you'll be flying. I'll try and get some piccys up later.

I would imagine that timber in the UK would be the major headache, but making contact with a supplier over here and taking it back will save you alot.

Sod the bank balance, and welcome to the world of insanity...[6]

[Just Katie]

[quote user="Chris Head"]

welcome to the world of insanity...[6]

[/quote]

He is already there Chris.  He spends all day with hundreds of adolescents. remember?[;-)]

 

[Dave&Olive]

hi Dick

          did you know you can use your router table as a joiner /planer .

           Dave

 why buy something for €20 when you can make one for €40

[Chris Head]

True Katie...but at least he doesn't have to share an office with you!

X

[Dick Smith]

 why buy something for €20 when you can make one for €40

Quite!

Chris and Twinks - there is a woodworking forum I have been visiting, and there is a thread there on what contributors do for a living. Very few make a living from working wood, there are large numbers of IT managers, teachers, merchant navy officers etc. All people who don't ever get to make or complete anything in their working lives and so try to put some creativity and just plain making-fun into their leisure time. Which I can relate to 100% because that is why I do it. And it is the best fun I have these days. Sort of...

So that extra €20 is money well spent!

[Chris Head]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

 why buy something for €20 when you can make one for €40

Quite!

Chris and Twinks - there is a woodworking forum I have been visiting, and there is a thread there on what contributors do for a living. Very few make a living from working wood, there are large numbers of IT managers, teachers, merchant navy officers etc. All people who don't ever get to make or complete anything in their working lives and so try to put some creativity and just plain making-fun into their leisure time. Which I can relate to 100% because that is why I do it. And it is the best fun I have these days. Sort of...

So that extra €20 is money well spent!
[/quote]

Maybe there's a left side of brain vs right side of brain thing going on? Perhaps folk who are in proffessions (sp?) where they have followed set processes for a number of years have difficulty launching into a pastime where there really aren't any rules? Perhaps fear of failure is a factor?

[Cassis]

Shouldn't it be precisely those souls (i.e. those who have to follow rules and regs in their normal worklife) who get the biggest kick out of doing/making/creating something off their own bat?  Be it a chest of drawers, a flower bed or a needlepoint cushion? [:)]

[Chris Head]

Totally agree Cass, it should be. My question is simply that, a question. I have no answers or opinions, I think I'm just fishing...but nicely!

[Dick Smith]

I don't think you completely followed my point. It is exactly those people who are in non-physical non-completing occupations that look for some other outlet for their creativity. They don't fear failure - they are going for it - have a look at some of their projects. A lot seem to go in the fine woodworking direction, and I suspect their projects take a long, long time. Perhaps a sort of Zen?

And a further point - if it's a Gentleman's Saw, why did it have the poor manners to cut my finger?