Fe Fe Le Pugh Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Hi All, I'm in desperate need of some advice on behalf of another so I'm going to use partner A and B in my examples to protect identities. To protect partner B when a property was purchased in France for permanant residency a document was drawn up to ensure that partner B was allowed to continue to live in the property for their lifetime should partner A pass away. Partner A has a son from another marriage. From research I'm presuming this was a "usufruit?". The question I need to ask is, is it possible to have this removed if a marriage breaks up? At the time it was only partner A who had to sign the document so I'm presuming the house was purchased by partner A outright because it offers no protection to partner A on the death of partner B. Forgive me for being vauge here but I'm unable to get limited information and only yes and no answers over the telephone and that I do have I don't want to say too much because for all I know partner B might post on this forum! Yours a very helpful friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Not without B agreeing and the son of A paying through his nose.If it is a usufruit then B could rent the property and enjoy the proceeds until his death.Only a check on the original "acte authentique" would reveal if B is constrained in his use and "jouissance" of the property.In any event an estimate of the NPV of the " usufruit" could be easily established from the "valeur locative" and the life expectancy of B.Interest rates for mortgages are likely to be marginally stable over the next 10 years or so giving a basis for a discounting factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Are you saying that they subsequently got married? And why are you asking, is divorce on the cards, if so, then this should be sorted out in the divorce proceedings. If not, then if they are married I would imagine that as a spouse B, could not be thrown out if A dies any way.I hate that word partner, it just means you are living with someone who could go and marry someone else tomorrow, it means nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Usufruit is a bit like a leaseholder except it is something you own until you sell it.It gives you the right to live in or 'exploit' i.e for example let out, a house or building, but you don't own the walls.That belongs to the person who has the nul proprieté.Often both go together, but they can be separated, and so for example A might be nul proprietaire and sell the walls, but B who has the usufruit still has the right to live there, or as PP says let it.See here (ask if you are unsure of the French) http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F934.xhtmlAre you sure you are talking about usufruit and not a clause 'Tontine' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 And if it is "tontine" then the son of A is really up the swannee without a paddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 [quote user="Fe Fe Le Pugh"]Hi All, I'm in desperate need of some advice on behalf of another so I'm going to use partner A and B in my examples to protect identities. To protect partner B when a property was purchased in France for permanant residency a document was drawn up to ensure that partner B was allowed to continue to live in the property for their lifetime should partner A pass away. Partner A has a son from another marriage. From research I'm presuming this was a "usufruit?". The question I need to ask is, is it possible to have this removed if a marriage breaks up? At the time it was only partner A who had to sign the document so I'm presuming the house was purchased by partner A outright because it offers no protection to partner A on the death of partner B. Forgive me for being vauge here but I'm unable to get limited information and only yes and no answers over the telephone and that I do have I don't want to say too much because for all I know partner B might post on this forum! Yours a very helpful friend Hi, From what you write I am assuming that 1. Partners A and B were married at the time they purchased, and 2. As you say only A signed , I think what he signed was a "Donation entre époux. This doesn't necessarily mean that A was the sole owner , but could well have been . A "Donation entre époux" -if that's what it is , can be revoked at any time by the person who signed it (via a notaire) . A does not have to tell B that it has been revoked. A "Donation entre époux" covers not only the house but gives the surviving spouse several options for inheriting from the other , at the succession , including all in life-interest (usufruit). If a divorce takes place , the courts (in either the UK or France -there is a choice) will decide who gets what , without reference to any succession arrangements.I hope I have guessed right, but without further info , it's difficult. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe Fe Le Pugh Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 [quote user="idun"]Are you saying that they subsequently got married? And why are you asking, is divorce on the cards, if so, then this should be sorted out in the divorce proceedings. If not, then if they are married I would imagine that as a spouse B, could not be thrown out if A dies any way.I hate that word partner, it just means you are living with someone who could go and marry someone else tomorrow, it means nothing at all. [/quote]Yes to both questions and I don't think from my research that the partnership has the same rights in French inheritance law as it does automatically in English law, partners have to be protected as if not the property as a whole or particially, depending on how it was bought, will automatically pass to the children. I hate "partner/partnership" too, it's something and nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe Fe Le Pugh Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Hi, It's not the son we're worried about. Basically partner A wants to sell the house because they are destitute, no money for bills, to eat or even to get home, the cupboard is bare :-( Partner B saw partner A coming, partner A bought the house and let B a free rein with the money and plenty of money too! Partner A wanted to protect partner B when they origionally bought the house but now they HAVE to sell the house partner B is making it very difficult if not neigh impossible for them to stay but then demands half the proceeds from the house sale and refuses to drop the asking price and refuses to come home either. Someone did mention that if partner A left there's some law about abandonment and that's what partner B is hoping for so they can get to stay in the house. The thing is if they did leave is there any way to get partner B out of the house? There is NO CHOICE there is no money left, no income, nothing neither of them can stay. Partner A is off the scale of stress levels and then some, even talked about suicide that's as far as B has driven A, emotionally and physically wrecked. Complete con person through and through without a doubt, saw partner A coming for sure and if doesn't pay for it in this life will hopefully have to pay for it in the next. I said too much already :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe Fe Le Pugh Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 "A "Donation entre époux" covers not only the house but gives the surviving spouse several options for inheriting from the other , at the succession , including all in life-interest (usufruit). If a divorce takes place , the courts (in either the UK or France -there is a choice) will decide who gets what , without reference to any succession arrangements.I hope I have guessed right, but without further info , it's difficult."Well from what you are saying I sincerely hope it is that but guess I have to pin down exactly what was signed. It's difficult because I can only get yes or no answers because the other half of the partnership is keeping an eye/ear on everything that's being said and done no doubt to protect their "investment". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe Fe Le Pugh Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Thanks all, I'll try and get more accurate information and come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 A donation after 01/01/2005 may not be so easily revocable as a donation prior to this date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Fe Fe said: Yes to both questions and I don't think from my research that the partnership has the same rights in French inheritance law as it does automatically in English law, Please don't think that a couple living together and unmarried have automatic rights in english law, unless things have changed radically and recently, they have not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe Fe Le Pugh Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 [quote user="idun"]Fe Fe said: Yes to both questions and I don't think from my research that the partnership has the same rights in French inheritance law as it does automatically in English law, Please don't think that a couple living together and unmarried have automatic rights in english law, unless things have changed radically and recently, they have not. [/quote]When I say partnership I mean marriage. There was one major change for married and unmarried couples just last year, a test case where there was not the automatic 50/50 split of assets because one half of the partnership could proove they put more into the purchasing of the assets than the other and walked away with a percentage equal to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 [quote user="Fe Fe Le Pugh"][quote user="idun"] Fe Fe said: Yes to both questions and I don't think from my research that the partnership has the same rights in French inheritance law as it does automatically in English law, Please don't think that a couple living together and unmarried have automatic rights in english law, unless things have changed radically and recently, they have not. [/quote]When I say partnership I mean marriage. There was one major change for married and unmarried couples just last year, a test case where there was not the automatic 50/50 split of assets because one half of the partnership could proove they put more into the purchasing of the assets than the other and walked away with a percentage equal to that. [/quote]So were your A & B married in france? If so when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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