Property 'testament' held with a Notaire?

[joidevie]

Hello all..

Last year it was recommended to me to lodge a 'testament' with my Notaire 'leaving' my house with to person of my choice in the event of my death to avoid any great tax burdens..

This amounted to no more than a hand written piece of paper where I wrote to whom it should go to (with the contents). The Notaire dictated to me what to write and it is now in my 'dossier'..

More recently I have been drafting a UK will and my solicitor is not entirely impressed with the document as it is merely a 'statement' (the paper itself is not even 'signed' by the Notaire himself, though he did witness my writing it)..

Is this type of 'testament' (or will) indeed completely 'valid'? And in UK law too?

Many thanks in advance for any help on this..

[andyh4]

There are several types of will and testament in France and one of them does requie that the testament be handwritten and is not witnessed.  I am sure someone will be along and give chapter and verse on what this type is called.

 

Regarding validity:  French property inheritance is governed by French regulations, so the validity in the UK is of no importance as far as I can see.

 

Regarding avoiding large amounts of tax - depending on who you have left the property to, you may have been ill advised.  Unless the recipient is a direct heir then they will be liable for something like 60% taxes after a paltry tax free amount.  In fact if you do have direct heirs then your hand written will can be deemed nul and void. EDIT: Assuming you have not left it to the direct heirs.

[parsnips]

[quote user="joidevie"]Hello all..

Last year it was recommended to me to lodge a 'testament' with my Notaire 'leaving' my house with to person of my choice in the event of my death to avoid any great tax burdens..

This amounted to no more than a hand written piece of paper where I wrote to whom it should go to (with the contents). The Notaire dictated to me what to write and it is now in my 'dossier'..

More recently I have been drafting a UK will and my solicitor is not entirely impressed with the document as it is merely a 'statement' (the paper itself is not even 'signed' by the Notaire himself, though he did witness my writing it)..

Is this type of 'testament' (or will) indeed completely 'valid'? And in UK law too?

Many thanks in advance for any help on this..

[/quote]

Hi,

     I assume you are not french resident, so the only property covered by french succession law is your house.  If the paper you signed is all in your own handwriting and dated and signed by you , it constitutes a valid "holograph" will which is legal for the disposal of your french house only , in the event of your death.  If the notaire had signed it ,it would not have been valid.  Your UK will should contain a phrase to the effect that it revokes all previous dispositions for your assets in england and wales , but NOT your french will dealing with your property at   ..........  . If you wish to change the french will , all you need do is write another in the same format as the existing one , take or send it to the notaire and ask him to return the first one to you (to be sure it is destroyed).   Your UK solicitor is probably "unimpressed " by this will , because he is unfamiliar with french succession law.

[idun]

Your handwritten paper, unstamped etc and not confirmed by the notaire is perfectly fine. These handwritten letters, are, I believe invalidated if they are touched or have anything else noted on them.

 The content by the sounds of it, may not cover what you want and may not follow french law.... and you should discuss this with at least one notaire.

What your UK solicitor thinks or believes is neither here nor there. They obviously know nothing of the french system.

 

Incidentally, if you did this 'letter' via a notaire in France and paid, it should be registered in a central office, in I think Aix en Provence. However, you never needed to register this either or for a notaire to see it. One of these letters as long as it is properly done can be kept at home and is legal.

[joidevie]

Thanks everyone so much, this is most useful..

As ever, some really clear pointers.. Great forum.

[woolybanana]

Nowadays, notaires register wills with some central place to avoid fraud and confusion. There is also a formula of words which is used that is clear and legal.

Of course, you can leave a handwritten bit of paper on the kitchen table too, but what would happen if someone challenged it?

[parsnips]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Nowadays, notaires register wills with some central place to avoid fraud and confusion. There is also a formula of words which is used that is clear and legal.

Of course, you can leave a handwritten bit of paper on the kitchen table too, but what would happen if someone challenged it?

[/quote]

Hi,

 The OP said it is "lodged " with the notaire as part of his dossier..

[idun]

parsnips, I noticed that too, but the notaire should really lodge it with the central register, which they have been able to do for many many years. Means if a person moves then the central register can be checked when they die.

[PaulT]

A couple of years back we made a UK Will and a French Will.

The UK Will involved meetings, drafts etc and eventually the Wills were produced at great expense.

The UK Wills involved a meeting with our French Notaire and him checking which French charities we could leave money to and also discussions on how we could dispose of our French property. He then sent us the text that had to be handwritten and instructions on how it should be signed etc and then returned to him. The cost was a thrid of the UK cost.

I can understand the UK solicitor being concerned - far less complex so they would not be able to screw so much money out of the punters.

Paul

[Loiseau]

Paul, I think your second para should start "Our FRENCH will..."

I have done both, and had the experience you describe re the relative cost. But my french one was very basic, and just leaves my meagre French property and anything in bank account to my daughter. The UK one also involved step children and issue, too, so was potentially more complicated.

It's important to start either will with a phrase about how it concerns only one's assets in .........

Angela

[parsnips]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Paul, I think your second para should start "Our FRENCH will..."

I have done both, and had the experience you describe re the relative cost. But my french one was very basic, and just leaves my meagre French property and anything in bank account to my daughter. The UK one also involved step children and issue, too, so was potentially more complicated.

It's important to start either will with a phrase about how it concerns only one's assets in .........

Angela[/quote]

Hi,

    If,, as I assume you are UK resident then the only asset that should pass under the french will be  french real estate.   See article 4 of  the treaty here;

www.ambafrance-uk.org/Treaty-Inheritance-tax.html

only physical bank notes are deemed to be sited in the country where they are at the time of death.

[PaulT]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Paul, I think your second para should start "Our FRENCH will..."

Angela[/quote]

Wondered who would spot that first [:$]

[Loiseau]

That's interesting, Parsnips... It was the local notaire who suggested adding the phrase about bank accounts - indeed, only used for running costs for French holiday home. I ran the wording past a big-shot anglo french lawyer in Paris, too, before signing, and he didn't pick up on it.

Oh well, i shall be dead and gone when/if the testament comes into play, and there's not a lot at stake.

Angela