Tour de Pharmacy - hope for Wegalius and Millar ?

[Iceni]

With the ejection of Vino, Rasmussen, Astana and Cofidis the British are moving quickly up the rankings. Only another 40 or so and Charlie will be on the podium.

John

not

[Logan]

They should rename it Le Tour de Farce, or 'tout ca c'est vraiment grotesque'.  

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article2141780.ece

[TreizeVents]

Hey Logan,

I would have thought you would be happy for the Tour to catch and exclude people who cheat.  What are you grumbling about anyway?  Do you have any interest in the Tour historically or do you ride a bike?   Do you know anything about the Tour except as a spectacle?  What would you have the Tour organisers do when they find cheats?  Should they keep looking for them?  Maybe you think that because some riders use forbidden drugs they should stop having the Tour?  Maybe stop all professinoal and amateur cycling? Maybe shoot all cyclists? 

The better policy might be to revert to the one used by football.  The head of FIFA claims that since football is not an endurance sport, there is not need for blood testing.  So they don't do it.  Not at all.  So who knows what is going on in football.  In fact, given that we all live in a country where it is perfectly normal for endless people (although I am sure you NEVER do it) to drink and then drive (illegal AND dangerous), sometimes the complaints of some self-righteous people are a bit wearing. 

Incidentally I have no idea why all the Cofidis team left just because one rider snuck off and doped up.  No sense at all.

[Gardian]

What's for sure is that this has been the most unpredictable Tour for years.

Vino's situation - sad, but he was looking for a glorious exit from competitive cycling. Doesn't excuse it though.

Rasmussen - you never really felt that he was telling the truth, did you?  Finding himself as the Tour leader was a surprise and the recent past came back to haunt him.

 

[Logan]

Professional sport as an entertainment and spectacle becomes utterly meaningless when drugs are used to improve performance. People cheat because they seek advantage without the huge effort or talent required to excel. It has been well known for years that professional cycling was drug infested. In fact it became impossible to win an international tour without dope. The issue in very recent times has been the ability to mask the existence of EPO in the blood and pass any tests applied. A masking agent invented in California has proved very effective. The Tour is catching up and I believe have a stronger will than before to defeat the cheats. Not least since the major sponsors are threatening to pull out for good. Europe’s testing labs. can now defeat the masking agents and detect the performance related drugs. Until someone invents another more effective undetectable drug we should begin to see drug use decline. Zero tolerance must surely be in everyone’s interests.

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

What is zero tolerance and of what? Blood doping sounds ok to me if it is only replacing blood havind given it an airing. But some of the other stuff???

Nah, if a Frenchman had been winning and if the weather had been good all this would have been swept up the jersey so to speak.

[TreizeVents]

Hey Logan,

Professional sport IS a spectacle. 

Always has been, and given the increasing influence of money and profit in it,

it will get worse.  A brilliant example of the market gone mad.  ALL

the riders in the Tour have huge talent and make massive efforts to train and

ride.  To say otherwise indicates a massive ignorance of cycling. 

They cheat to win and make more money for their sponsors, to increase the

effectiveness of advertising.   

There never has been a "masking agent" for EPO, invented originally

for kidney dialysis patients.  Masking agents in cycling usually are for

steroids, not EPO.   What did not exist until 2000 or a bit later, when

everyone agreed on its validity, is a test which proved artificial EPO had been

used.  A test that could distinguish between natural epo and artificial

epo.  Some pharmaceutical or performance aids like blood transfusions from

oneself to oneself, and use of human growth hormones are still without any

detection and could be used by any athlete on earth without anyone knowing (and

I am sure they are being used).  And no doubt there are other drugs whose

use by some professional sports figures has not even been recognised, much less

tested.  The major sponsors of the Tour, Credit Lyonnais, Skoda, PMU, Champion,

and others seem to be signing new contracts.  Sponsors for individual

teams come and go and always have.  Most

of them are staying, although some will no doubt go.  Maybe more than in

an average year.  We shall see.  They were supposed to all leave after the

Festina affair, but budgets are higher than ever. The fans were meant to desert

too, but they seem to be more numerous than ever.  

 Furthermore,

YOU have no idea whatever that every rider who ever won an International Tour

used drugs.  No idea at all, you can't prove it, and you just read vague

and simplistic accusations somewhere.  You have proof that Indurain used

drugs?  Where?  Proof that Lemond used drugs?  Where? 

Maybe they did and maybe they didn't.  But YOU have no proof at all, and

neither does anyone on earth (so far anyway).  So you should not say stuff

like that unless you think you can say whatever you like and get away with it.

Although you reveal your ignorance of the details of cycling and the Tour with

every sentence, I certainly agree with you that efforts should be made to catch

the cheats AND make sure the rules are clear, in all sports.  You might

not have noticed the cheats in other sports.  You might also not realise

that cycling is the most controlled sport on earth (almost certainly), that's

why they catch people.  Given that, I can't understand your previous post. 

You want the cheats caught, what's the problem, cycling and the Tour are trying

to catch them, and probably doing a better job than any other sport.  All

sports, including cycling, use drugs.  So do normal people, just to get

through the day.  Its not a problem of sports, but of current market,

profit, money driven society.  You have the money, you get the product.  You also mention nothing of the competition,

the market, normal business competition between the UCI and the ASO (owners of

the Tour and other races and L’Équipe) which is a very crucial part of the current

conflict.  Much of it is just

businessmen squabbling for market share.

I might also add that if the footballers and rugby players had regular and

comprehensive blood tests, then I would love to see the results.  But you

don't test a footie player who makes 15 million a year, do you?  The tests

for golf and tennis and Formula One are a joke, as they are too rich to mess up

a system.  Imagine a Formula one Driver being busted for drug use!

Sometimes, Logan, you should not talk so much about stuff you know little

about.

[Logan]

"Sometimes, Logan, you should not talk so much about stuff you know little about. "

And you TV of course are the fountain of all knowledge and are always right. I resent you personalising my posts and shall ignore your silly efforts to wind me up in future. 

[Iceni]

[quote user="Gardian"]

Rasmussen - you never really felt that he was telling the truth, did you?  Finding himself as the Tour leader was a surprise and the recent past came back to haunt him.

[/quote]

R lied, he must have something to hide so he must be guilty. The timing of the announcement by the Danish Cycling Federation and then Rabobank sacking him hints that they had not expected him to be in the yellow jersey this late in the Tour and could not risk the truth coming out after the finsih in Paris so had to throw him out NOW. They had allowed him to start so maybe the polka dot jersey is more acceptable for a suspected druggie ?

I find Millar's comments a tad hypocritical - "I got caught so cannot bear to see anyone else getting away with it".

It has been alleged that the Spanish Operation Puerto (?) in 2006 that lead to Basso etc not being allowed to start even though proven guilty of nothing at the time found a lot of blood bags of which only 50/60% or so belonged to cyclists. I haven't noticed other sports (sic) rushing forward to clean up their acts - but that's another story.

John

not

 

[Logan]

Here is a quote from an article in today's Times :-

"There is nothing new about doping during the three solid weeks of almost unimaginable pain that is the Tour de France: “purposeless suffering”, “pure sado-masochism” are two common epithets. “You’d have to be an imbecile or a hypocrite to imagine that a professional cyclist can hold himself together without stimulants,” Jacques Anquetil, five times winner of the Tour, told the newspaper L’Equipe 40 years ago. Today cyclists routinely use EPO, which increases endurance by allowing more oxygen into the blood, or testosterone which builds muscles. Alternatively, they are given nightly blood transfusions to start each day with someone else’s fresh blood. "

I have read a number of interviews recently from former champions who all now admit to the use of stimulants. Greg Lamond has said that in the past if a 'clean' rider ever complained about simulant use he would be blackballed from the team. That culture now seems to be broken and riders are being encouraged to report any suspicions they have about others. If that continues then hopefully the Tour will be cleaned up.

[Gardian]

Forgive me for digressing slightly, but what happened to the Team Time Trial this year? 

[TreizeVents]

[quote

user="Logan"]

"Sometimes,

Logan, you should not talk so much about stuff you know little about. "

And you TV of

course are the fountain of all knowledge and are always right. I

resent you personalising my posts and shall ignore your silly efforts

to wind me up in future. 

[/quote]

I don’t get the point about personalising, as I was directly replying to

you.  Therefore, personalising. 

 

I am often wrong, or more often, I have

been reminded lately, unable to make very good arguments.  I am not always right.

 

But one thing I can tell you, and I am

sorry you might be unable to accept it, is that I know more about the Tour de

France than anyone you know (probably). 

And a bit about the rest of cycling too, although I have never been a

racing cyclist.  So what I say about the

Tour, while obviously tinged with my own take and flavour, is based on very

good knowledge.  Some people, for whom I

have written on the Tour for ten years, find my analysis helpful.  Not perfect, not right, but helpful, and

sometimes even a bit original.  Its good

information.  Although, I will admit to

a “tout petit peu” tendency to try to “wind you up”. I could write the same

information without that edge.  Sometimes

I am sorry I do.  So if it stopped you

from reading my post and discussing, I apologise. But you are fun to wind up,

and we disagree so totally on so many things, it seems easy, perhaps too easy

(I should try to stop it).  The other

thing, of course, is that sometimes you are wrong or ill informed.  So I might post.

 

But if you want to discuss, I would love

to.  I love discussing the Tour, and had

a long “active discussion” with several of the old geezers in the club (I am

one of them actually).  I love the Tour

and I love the vélo.  Although I am a

bit bored with drug matters and the need to bone up on medical terms and drug

effects, just to understand what is going on. 

It seems so peripheral to cycling in some ways.

All the best, and I will try to leave out the "wind up" bits.

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Gardian"]Forgive me for digressing slightly, but what happened to the Team Time Trial this year? [/quote]

There are loads of changes in the Tour route and variety of stages, over the years they have left out the prologue, left out the Team Time Trial, have or not had a mountain time trial, had two medium or one long and one short time trial, climbed Alpe d'Huez or Ventoux, or not ...  These "framework events" (I jus tmade that up) have been placed in various slots in the Tour depending on all sorts of considerations, including money.  They change directions every year as well, but you problably knew that.  They also only began ending the race on the Champs, a few decades ago.  It was in Parc des Princes velodrome for many years.  I won't look all that stuff up in detail, like how often have they skipped the TTT, but they do make changes.  The two constants are the Alps and the Pyrenees.  They never, ever miss them.  There are other landmarks too, like a sprint finish in Bordeaux, a bit of the Vosges, a trip across the Massif Central, some gotty Norther bits, but some years they don't have them.   They can train or fly across whole parts of Frandce without touching them, although we all pretend it goes "all around France". 

The short answer is that I don't know and have never read about anyone who says they know.  It would have been a committee business decision made by the management of Amaury Sports Organisation who own and run the Tour as well as many other big races (and L'Equipe too).   They just decided at that meeting.  YOu know I am sure that every city PAYS to have the Tour end or begin there.  All negotiated, like the route.   Sometimes people suspect them of organising a route which "favours" one rider or anohter.  Usually big favourites.  Like an "Anti-Lance" route.  Or a route that might favour climbers or time trialists.  But I don't know why this year, as there was no favourite, tehy cut the TTT.  I love watching the TTT.  It is some kind of poetry in motion.  Most people think it was a very fair route.  And the tight result at the top, decided fianlly only on hte last day, must have pleased them.

Next year, for example there NO prologue will exist.  The first three stages are all in Brittany.  No prologue.  They just change things to keep people intested.  Like any good entertainment. 

[TreizeVents]

[quote

user="Logan"]

Here is a quote from an

article in today's Times :-

"There is

nothing new about doping during the three solid weeks of almost unimaginable

pain that is the Tour de France: “purposeless suffering”, “pure sado-masochism”

are two common epithets. “You’d have to be an imbecile or a hypocrite to

imagine that a professional cyclist can hold himself together without

stimulants,” Jacques Anquetil, five times winner of the Tour, told the

newspaper L’Equipe 40 years ago. Today cyclists routinely use EPO, which

increases endurance by allowing more oxygen into the blood, or testosterone

which builds muscles. Alternatively, they are given nightly blood transfusions

to start each day with someone else’s fresh blood. "

I have read a number of

interviews recently from former champions who all now admit to the use of

stimulants. Greg Lamond has said that in the past if a 'clean' rider ever

complained about simulant use he would be blackballed from the team. That

culture now seems to be broken and riders are being encouraged to report any

suspicions they have about others. If that continues then hopefully the Tour

will be cleaned up.

[/quote]

 

I will react to your Times quote.  He’s right aobut the pain and

suffering.  Purposeless is a bit demeaning

and ignorant.  It’s a business,

employing thousands of people over the whole year, and specifically hordes more

people during the Tour.  Think of all the

people driving all those vehicles.  Riders

make an entire career from winning one stage of the Tour.  The yellow jersey is a talisman that changes

riders’ lives forever.  There are millions

of euros involved.  It very purposeful

suffering.

 

As for Jacques, well Jacques was one of the

worst dopers in history.  He gave great

quotes, and he was right of course. 

Many riders, in fact many people use drugs, legal and illegal and in

legal or illegal quantities, to get through their days.  Its not quite the same as the methodical

medical research and training experimentation that the top class athletes

do.  So using that Anquetil quote is

pretty lazy journalism.  Its also not

accurate, but the idea is there for sure. 

Doping is not new.

 

As for epo, it is now detectable.  Before 2000 or 2001 it was not

detectable.  So any rider who uses epo

now has to be very careful, and also very lucky (random tests).  Most drug busts in cycling these days are

not for epo.  But it happens regularly

and they do use it.  Artificial testosterone,

also easily detectable, is still being used. 

You wonder sometimes about the intelligence of some of these guys.  Vinokourov’s transfusion was from another

person.  They can’t detect transfusions

from you to yourself.  You gotta admit

that is a dumb tactic to use someone else’s blood, and then go and win two

stages, knowing you will be tested and that you will be caught.  Maybe stronger than “dumb”.  A better use of reflection on this doping problem

would be to figure out exactly why these guys STILL use drugs that can be

detected.  That would be good

journalism. Anyway, they do use blood transfusions.  Since its not detectable, I might suggest that one or two other

athletes in one or two other sports might have heard about the technique.  I seldom read, in “Tour” coverage in

English, the wider perspective of drug use in society and much about other

sports. 

 

Anyway, that guy is basically fine, but I

bet next week they will assign him to judo, and then a bit of flood work.  He’s a journalist, he writes simple

articles.  Fair enough.  But they are simple.  I often look at the coverage in the Guardian

and Daily Telegraph as well,  during the

Tour, and am reminded what limits journalists have.  The only really good paper on the Tour is L’Equipe, and that is

owned by ASO, like the Tour.  And is

seriously French.

 

As for

breaking that “enhanced performance technique” culture, I am not so sure.  I hope you are right, but I hold no more

hope of that changing than, say, stopping people in France from drinking

illegal amounts of alcohol before driving. 

I mean, it is imbedded.  Its, as

the French say, “normal”.   But above

all, the Tour is a fantastic spectacle that will never die.  There quite simply is nothing like it.  It’s a global event, organised brilliantly,

by the French. 

[Gardian]

[quote user="TreizeVents"][quote user="Gardian"]Forgive me for digressing slightly, but what happened to the Team Time Trial this year? [/quote]


The short answer is that I don't know and have never read about anyone who says they know. [/quote]

Thanks for that TV.  Looks like a seriously good finish tomorrow.  I know that it's a 'done deed', but you never know ........