Do we need to make a french will?

[rowland]

Hi

I have spent some time reading the FAQ and succession posts and searching the forum and I think that the answer may be that there is no need for us to do so.

We have two properties in France - one bought 'en tontine' and the other 'en division'

We live in the UK, have no children, no parents, OH is an only child and I have one brother.

In our british wills we have left everything to each other. Will this be enough or should we make a simple will in France leaving the french properties to one another?

I followed the links re proposed changes to the law but note that these will not come into effect until 2015 (if then).

Any advice/comments gratefully received.

Thanks

[parsnips]

[quote user="rowland"]

Hi

I have spent some time reading the FAQ and succession posts and searching the forum and I think that the answer may be that there is no need for us to do so.

We have two properties in France - one bought 'en tontine' and the other 'en division'

We live in the UK, have no children, no parents, OH is an only child and I have one brother.

In our british wills we have left everything to each other. Will this be enough or should we make a simple will in France leaving the french properties to one another?

I followed the links re proposed changes to the law but note that these will not come into effect until 2015 (if then).

Any advice/comments gratefully received.

Thanks

[/quote]

Hi,

   You have no "reserved heirs" so under current french law the surviving spouse will inherit all french assets automatically with no IHT liability. A french will is not necessary.  The succession will have to be dealt with by a notaire as it consists of real estate, so notaire's fees will be due. 

[rowland]

Thank you so much for your reply. I thought I had read it correctly but just wanted to make sure.

Rowland

[parsnips]

[quote user="rowland"]

Thank you so much for your reply. I thought I had read it correctly but just wanted to make sure.

Rowland

[/quote]

Hi,

      You might want to give some thought to what you would wish to happen to your assets if you die as the surviving spouse, or if you should both die in the same incident.  In those cases , in the absence of a will the assets will pass to the nearest blood relative(s).  If you are happy with that , you need do nothing. 

[Clarkkent]

Rowland

My wife and I bought our maison secondaire en tontine. We made no French wills.

When my wife died, the house was mine and was treated as though it had been from the time of purchase. I spent about an hour in the notaire's office. Since the value of the property was not very high, there was no tax to pay, but I did have to pay a registration fee. That and the notaire's fee came to about €400. At no time was any interest shown in any possible will. Your situation appears to be extremely straightforward - I don't think you should worry.

[rowland]

Parsnips - thanks for your reply. We have english wills set up to cover the situation should we die at the same time but I take it from your comments that those wills would not be considered in France.  My closest blood relative is my brother and OH has only cousins so your reply suggests that they would inherit the french properties.

It is sounding more complicated by the minute as we have specified in our english wills that all properties be sold and the proceeds divided between several beneficiaries.

I think we will have to take advice and make a french will to avoid complications - not that we would be around to sort it all out!!!

[Loiseau]

In our English wills, there was a sentence "excluding any property I may own in France", or something. I wonder if it would be prudent to add that in your UK wills?

Angela

[parsnips]

[quote user="rowland"]

Parsnips - thanks for your reply. We have english wills set up to cover the situation should we die at the same time but I take it from your comments that those wills would not be considered in France.  My closest blood relative is my brother and OH has only cousins so your reply suggests that they would inherit the french properties.

It is sounding more complicated by the minute as we have specified in our english wills that all properties be sold and the proceeds divided between several beneficiaries.

I think we will have to take advice and make a french will to avoid complications - not that we would be around to sort it all out!!!

[/quote]

Hi,

       You can , of course , make a french will with exactly the same provisions as your english will , and it will be honoured in france - but the taxes charged on the distantly or unrelated beneficiaries of the french property would be very high (60% on a non-relative).

[Loiseau]

I recently made a French will, to clarify that my only child would receive everything of my French property. It was very cheap to do, and very simple. After a discussion with the notaire, she wrote out the necessary wording on a sheet of A4, and I just had to copy that out in my own hand. The original is filed at some central place, to be brought out and applied on my death.

As i already had made a UK will that would share out my UK assets differently, I did make sure that the French one had a phrase excluding any UK assets.

Angela

[Alan Zoff]

A common trap to watch out for when making more than one will, where both are to remain in force, is that a will usually begins with the words "I revoke all my previous wills", or words to that effect. Wills can be accidentally revoked this way which can lead to the need for expensive rectification work after the death (if indeed it can be rectified) that would have been avoided had the drafter of the later will been more careful.

Always make sure when making a will that any earlier will, wherever made, is taken into account.

[rowland]

Thanks to everyone for helpful comments. I think I have read somewhere (but can't for the life of me remember where!) that any bequests to registered charities are not subject to French Inheritance Tax - have I made that up?

If we leave things to non-relatives then after paying up to 60% in tax plus notaire's fees there would be hardly anything left!

 

[idun]

Incidentally,  have you mentioned your OH being a spouse etc,  if not and  you are just living in concubinage, then that changes everything. Non relatives have a small tax free allowance and then there is 60% on their inheritance.

And if you are married etc, and your spouse

dies first and you want to leave something to their cousins, then they

are not your relative ie your blood line, so a non relative and would get the small tax free allowance and be

taxed at the 60% as would your brother if you go first and your spouse

leaves something to him.

Without checking, I do believe that there are some french charities that one can donate to

and avoid paying the 60% inheritance tax.

[Gardener]

It may be worth having a look at this which may be useful in you case eg no children

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/civil/family-matters/successions/index_en.htm8BLpTJM5

[Wilko]

Gardener the link won't work for me.

W

[Gardener]

Try this one

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/civil/family-matters/successions/index_en.htm

[parsnips]

[quote user="rowland"]

Thanks to everyone for helpful comments. I think I have read somewhere (but can't for the life of me remember where!) that any bequests to registered charities are not subject to French Inheritance Tax - have I made that up?

If we leave things to non-relatives then after paying up to 60% in tax plus notaire's fees there would be hardly anything left!

 

[/quote]

Hi,

     Bequests to charities recognised in France and to certain foreign charities are tax-free.   Best to contact your chosen charities and get them to confirm their french tax-free status.

[rowland]

Sorry to bring this up again but have just received this month's copy of French Property News and read the article relating to french wills. It states  'When a client wishes to gift a French house in his will he has the option to either put a clause in his English will or write a French will structured as stated by the French Civil Code'.

This is apparently covered in Article 1 of the Hague Convention of 5th October 1961.

According to the article, the Article stipulates that a testamentary disposition (gift within a will) shall be valid if it complies with the internal law of one of the following:

a) the place where the testator made it

b) the state of which the testator was a national either at the time when he made the deposition or at the time of death.

c)the place in which the testator had his domicile either at the time when he made the disposition or at the time of death.

d) the place in which the testator had his habitual residence either at the time when he made the disposition or at the time of his death

e)so far as immovable properties are concerned of the place where they are situated.

It would therefore seem that as long as your french property is mentioned in your english will then that would be okay.

It does not solve the problem of inheritance tax and it does not seem right that one is penalised for not having any children or blood relatives.  C'est la vie!

[parsnips]

[quote user="rowland"]

Sorry to bring this up again but have just received this month's copy of French Property News and read the article relating to french wills. It states  'When a client wishes to gift a French house in his will he has the option to either put a clause in his English will or write a French will structured as stated by the French Civil Code'.

This is apparently covered in Article 1 of the Hague Convention of 5th October 1961.

According to the article, the Article stipulates that a testamentary disposition (gift within a will) shall be valid if it complies with the internal law of one of the following:

a) the place where the testator made it

b) the state of which the testator was a national either at the time when he made the deposition or at the time of death.

c)the place in which the testator had his domicile either at the time when he made the disposition or at the time of death.

d) the place in which the testator had his habitual residence either at the time when he made the disposition or at the time of his death

e)so far as immovable properties are concerned of the place where they are situated.

It would therefore seem that as long as your french property is mentioned in your english will then that would be okay.

It does not solve the problem of inheritance tax and it does not seem right that one is penalised for not having any children or blood relatives.  C'est la vie!

[/quote]

Hi,

       A will may be valid in France , in the sense that french law recognises it as a legal document, but if any of it's provisions directly contravene french succession law (forced heirship for example) they will not be complied with.

        And as you say , the important matter of unreasonably high french IHT is not resolved.

         With the new EU rules coming into force in a couple of years time , the forced heirship can be overcome , but the tax problem will remain.