Mechanics of new inheritance laws

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, I know about the new inheritance legislation taking full effect in France on 17th August 2015, but I also understand that any new French wills signed after 16th August 2012 can also benefit from these new rules as it is within the 3 year 'transition period'. I know specialist legal advice will be necessary but I have a question which someone out there may already have researched and therefore have the answer to:

Mrs DD and I are French residents but want all of our estates dealt with under UK inheritance law when we pop our clogs. What I wanted to know is whether, if a simple French will is made specifying that my/our estates are to be dealt with under UK law, and if (as is the case) we have UK wills, would those UK wills be the point of reference for the disposal of all our worldwide estate(s), or would any French based assets fall under rules of intestancy in the UK? I suppose the point is, if all is to be treated under UK inheritance law, would all joint assets automatically pass to the surviving spouse or would special reference need to be made to those assets in new UK wills? Any insight or experience most valued.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"]Hi, I know about the new inheritance legislation taking full effect in France on 17th August 2015, but I also understand that any new French wills signed after 16th August 2012 can also benefit from these new rules as it is within the 3 year 'transition period'. I know specialist legal advice will be necessary but I have a question which someone out there may already have researched and therefore have the answer to:

Mrs DD and I are French residents but want all of our estates dealt with under UK inheritance law when we pop our clogs. What I wanted to know is whether, if a simple French will is made specifying that my/our estates are to be dealt with under UK law, and if (as is the case) we have UK wills, would those UK wills be the point of reference for the disposal of all our worldwide estate(s), or would any French based assets fall under rules of intestancy in the UK? I suppose the point is, if all is to be treated under UK inheritance law, would all joint assets automatically pass to the surviving spouse or would special reference need to be made to those assets in new UK wills? Any insight or experience most valued.[/quote]

Hi,

     In my opinion, the simplest way to proceed is to make a french will (via a notaire), specifying that you wish UK law to apply to all your worldwide assets; then set out your wishes for those assets in detail.   I don't think you would need to maintain a UK will , except possibly for UK sited real estate.

     If you die resident in France the notaire with whom you deposit the testament , will deal with all of the succession.

[Laurier]

Hi Parsnips

Re your reply to DD, is there any benefit, as a French resident, in having UK law (will) apply to the worldwide estate, if you still fall within the French inheritance laws for succession, etc. and thus still have to leave it to 'reserved heirs' or they pay the 60% tax?

I think I am missing something

Thanks

Laurier

[andyh4]

Yes I think you maybe are missing something.

Having a UK will means you can leave the entire property to a spouse and for it to be distributed to children - not necessarily joint children - on the death of the surviving partner.

It can be done in nefarious ways ( donation entre epouses or usifruit) but with restrictions under French law, and in some cases I believe the agreement of children may be required, and that may not be forthcoming.

EDITED to add: It would also allow the possibility of disinheriting a reserved heir should that be felt necessary.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Laurier"]Hi Parsnips

Re your reply to DD, is there any benefit, as a French resident, in having UK law (will) apply to the worldwide estate, if you still fall within the French inheritance laws for succession, etc. and thus still have to leave it to 'reserved heirs' or they pay the 60% tax?

I think I am missing something

Thanks

Laurier[/quote]

Hi,

 The fundamental  facts  about  this  new  arrangement for a french  resident  UK  citizen  are that ;

1. You  can  make a  Will  in  France  that  distributes  your  worldwide  assets  with  complete  freedom  (as  in  the  UK),  but;

 2. It does not  change  the  french  Inheritance  Tax  position  -  so , you  can  leave  all  your  assets  to  your  next  door  neighbour  or mistress in  France  or the  UK,  , but  the  Will  would be  administered  by  a  french  notaire , and  those  non-related  beneficiaries  would have  a  60%  french IHT  bill :  more  relevantly  assets  left  to  a stepchild  would  also  still  be  liable  to    60%  french  IHT.

In my opinion ,  the  only  people  who  will  get  a  significant  benefit  from  this  change  are  those  who  wish  to  disinherit  children , either , as  has  been  said , to  leave  all to  a  spouse  and subsequently to  the  children (of the marriage),  or to  permanently  disinherit a non-deserving child.

In my view , (from personal experience) , the use  of  marriage  contracts, french testaments in " demembrement"  , "donations entre epoux", and life assurance will remain  useful  , especially  where step children are involved.

  

[idun]

AND there is an article in on line magazine for Complete France

http://www.completefrance.com/living-in-france/news/succession_planning_for_expats_1_3948674

In France, children have a lot of rights and duties....... I can only think of devoir for duties as covering this really.

It is all very well people saying, and that includes me, that I want to do with 'my' money as I want. HOWEVER, french law covers children, which UK law does not which can lead to unfairness in the UK system.

So our 'right' that I always wanted was to be able to do as I wanted with my money and yet that is rather unfair of me too.

Then there is the devoir........ because if children in France have rights, they are also expected to care financially, for their parents in their old age, as are the grandchildren and great grandchildren. So does this mean that the french authorities will no longer be able to ask the children of expats to contribute, because the parent says that their money is theirs? Sure that'd work, and how the fonctionnaires would be very understanding[:-))].

And this illustrates the difference in the cultures and how fundamentally wrong this feels.

I believe that in both countries the inheritance laws need changing. These days many people have children by mulitple partners, or have their children and then end up with someone that is not their childrens parent........and that is not addressed properly by inheritance law. In fact I believe that it is hard to address in the UK, even if a will is made. At least from that point of view the french system is fairer, but as I said, the children also have responsibilies too.

Trouble is that so many people are living so long and end up needing expensive care.

[Laurier]

Thanks all for the replies.

I will print it out this time, Parsnips, to make sure I remember!

Thanks again

Laurier

[NormanH]

Seems weird to me to live in a country and own property there yet to  try to use another country's laws to subvert the regulations of the place in which you have chosen (you weren't invited or forced) to live.

[NickP]

Yep! bit like those who reside in France and moan because they can't vote in the UK. [:D]

[Rabbie]

I can understand those who if they get the chance take steps to protect their partner from loosing the property. Step children may not always be willing to delay taking their share especially if they are a bit strapped for cash.

[idun]

[quote user="NormanH"]Seems weird to me to live in a country and own property there yet to  try to use another country's laws to subvert the regulations of the place in which you have chosen (you weren't invited or forced) to live.

[/quote]

..........[6] and that is why I wanted to leave France when we retired. I know that the rules changed, but frankly, I still think that the children will be able to claim 'rights' as I doubt that can be instantly removed from their responsibilities. [:D]

[Daft Doctor]

Norman H, I find your comments on this occasion pompously opinionated, narrow minded and unhelpful.

When I die I want MY assets to go to whomever I wish under MY last will and testament, not dictated by the will of a French government who's inheritance laws are in the dark ages. I love being in France, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with everything French. In this case, the EU has afforded an opportunity to avoid these French inheritance laws if so desired in favour of (in my case) those of the UK, under which my last will and testament is absolutely respected. Why should it be so shameful to want that simple thing? I will not apologise for that, and quite frankly the French need a good kick up the a**e in this respect. The Napoleonic days are long gone, it is time inheritance laws in France were dragged into the 21st century!

Thank you to Parsnips for your helpful advice.

[crakpot]

My wife and I have 4 children from previous marriages and they don't get on well so from August they have no say in my UK will, all my dosh is now my beloved and she can do as she will

I read somewhere half of Germany is subject to Napoleonic law the other half is doing much better, the farms are bigger and industry is not cut in pieces

[NormanH]

[quote user="NickP"]Yep! bit like those who reside in France and moan because they can't vote in the UK. [:D]

[/quote]

I wrote "Seems weird to me to live in a country and own property there yet to 

try to use another country's laws to subvert the regulations of the

place in which you have chosen (you weren't invited or forced) to live.

What on earth has this to do with voting?  or moaning for that matter? There is neither connection nor similarity.

Do at least try to understand the gist of what is being said.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"]Norman H, I find your comments on this occasion pompously opinionated, narrow minded and unhelpful.

When I die I want MY assets to go to whomever I wish under MY last will and testament, not dictated by the will of a French government who's inheritance laws are in the dark ages. I love being in France, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with everything French. In this case, the EU has afforded an opportunity to avoid these French inheritance laws if so desired in favour of (in my case) those of the UK, under which my last will and testament is absolutely respected. Why should it be so shameful to want that simple thing? I will not apologise for that, and quite frankly the French need a good kick up the a**e in this respect. The Napoleonic days are long gone, it is time inheritance laws in France were dragged into the 21st century!

Thank you to Parsnips for your helpful advice.[/quote]

My comments were not intended as helpful they were intended as judgmental [:D]

Presumably your picking and choosing of the bits of French law that suit you is a principle that you would apply to immigrants in the UK who wish to apply the laws and customs of their own countries whan it pleases them?  Female circumcision, polygamy, Sharia law..

As has often been pointed out to me I knew the rules when I came to France. If you prefer UK law stay in the UK..

[crakpot]

Norman

Like you I have been a permanent resident in France for many years, for me its been a wonderful 19 years Its nice to know at long last I can dictate where my worldly goods go rather than a daft Medieval crackpot, who lost, dictate what I must do

Its also an Eu law and nothing to to do with th the UK as they declined to accept it, domestically their rules will allow any inheritance provision

[Rabbie]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Daft Doctor"]Norman H, I find your comments on this occasion pompously opinionated, narrow minded and unhelpful. When I die I want MY assets to go to whomever I wish under MY last will and testament, not dictated by the will of a French government who's inheritance laws are in the dark ages. I love being in France, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with everything French. In this case, the EU has afforded an opportunity to avoid these French inheritance laws if so desired in favour of (in my case) those of the UK, under which my last will and testament is absolutely respected. Why should it be so shameful to want that simple thing? I will not apologise for that, and quite frankly the French need a good kick up the a**e in this respect. The Napoleonic days are long gone, it is time inheritance laws in France were dragged into the 21st century! Thank you to Parsnips for your helpful advice.[/quote]

My comments were not intended as helpful they were intended as judgmental [:D]

Presumably your picking and choosing of the bits of French law that suit you is a principle that you would apply to immigrants in the UK who wish to apply the laws and customs of their own countries whan it pleases them?  Female circumcision, polygamy, Sharia law..
As has often been pointed out to me I knew the rules when I came to France. If you prefer UK law stay in the UK..

[/quote]You seem to be missing the point that it is now French law to opt to use UK inheritance laws where applicable. It does not seem unreasonable to me for people to use this if they want to.

[Daft Doctor]

In that case Norman, you are as incapable of reasoned judgement as you are of politeness. The difference between this inheritance law issue and the matters which you mention causing anxiety for some in the UK is that the EU, of which France is a fully fledged member, has through its democratically elected representatives introduced this new freedom of choice through legislation. In other words, this is part of what France signed up to and it is indeed now part of French law. You say I shouldn't pick and choose which bits of French law suit me, and should stay in the UK if I prefer UK inheritance law, well in this instance I can pick and choose because the EU has said so. By choosing UK inheritance law to apply rather than French I am not sticking up my 2 fingers to France, merely making a permitted choice which best suits my individual circumstances. Anyone who sticks with French inheritance law simply because they think it would be un-French not to do so would or would feel 'disloyal' to France in some way would IMHO be sadly misguided.

[idun]

Daft Doctor said:

, under which my last will and testament is absolutely respected. Why should it be so shameful to want that simple thing?

Is that really possible?

Personally, at the moment, I find that the UK system needs a bloody good kick up the backside as it has not kept up with modern families, at all.

At least the french system does, where by, even if people remarry all their kids get their half when they die, even if they have to wait for the current spouse to go. Also looks after children who are minors too. NOW THAT IS FAIR and for me enlightened and not in the dark ages at all.

In France family is important, as I keep saying, there are responsibilities too. Parents until the kids are 25 and then the adult children for their ageing parents and that is not unfair either. Maybe I was in France too long, but I do get the family aspect of all this.

[NormanH]

the EU, of which France is a fully fledged member, has through its

democratically elected representatives introduced this new freedom of

choice through legislation. In other words, this is part of what France

signed up to

Tell that to the Conservatives when they seek to pull out of the European convention on human rights.

As for 'reasoned argument' and  'opinionated' a statement such  as " it is time inheritance laws in France were dragged into the 21st century!"  is equally opinionated and  conflates self-interest with modernity.

[lindal1000]

I've never really understood why people feel that adult children need protecting in relation to inheritance. I speak as someone who has no protected heirs and who is doing her best to ensure that my hard earned money is all gone by the time I leave this planet. However, I have seen several examples of adult kids who certainly don't deserve by right to inherit large sums of money, given that it will almost certainly be spent unwisely. Working out how to spend my money or tie it up in charities or funds so that the government or minor family members can't get their mitts on it is not about not wanting to be 'un French '. Most French people I know want to do the same and use every fiddle they can. Latest one I heard of was a French chap who was paying for all the renovations to be done on his son's house as he had used up all his tax free cash gifts.

[ebaynut]

As was once said, ‘Rules and laws are put in place for the guidance of wise men. They are also there for the unquestioned, blind and total compliance of fools’.

[parsnips]

[quote user="NormanH"]Seems weird to me to live in a country and own property there yet to  try to use another country's laws to subvert the regulations of the place in which you have chosen (you weren't invited or forced) to live.

[/quote]

Hi,

       I do object to the use of the word "subvert" - this implies some kind of underhand and illicit practice.   Norman should consider the fact that this law change has been instigated by the EU Commission after long and detailed consideration of the anomalies which have caused difficulties and unreasonable expense to families (and lawyers -who of course pass their excess costs to the client) due to widely differing succession laws in all the EU countries (it's not all about "Brits ").

       I do get a bit fed up with the moralising" holier -than -thou" tone of some of the posts on this and other forums.

       If you have something useful and constructive to contribute, then do so ; otherwise keep the sermonizing for the bar room "brains trusts".

     

[idun]

[quote user="lindal1000"]I've never really understood why people feel that adult children need protecting in relation to inheritance. I speak as someone who has no protected heirs and who is doing her best to ensure that my hard earned money is all gone by the time I leave this planet. However, I have seen several examples of adult kids who certainly don't deserve by right to inherit large sums of money, given that it will almost certainly be spent unwisely. Working out how to spend my money or tie it up in charities or funds so that the government or minor family members can't get their mitts on it is not about not wanting to be 'un French '. Most French people I know want to do the same and use every fiddle they can. Latest one I heard of was a French chap who was paying for all the renovations to be done on his son's house as he had used up all his tax free cash gifts.[/quote]

We too, are children Lindal. A very good friend of mine found themselves in a terrible situation. And this because UK law does not cover children. Their mother, a widow, remarried. Their mother owned their own home, and  simply dropped down dead within weeks of the wedding. All went to the new spouse, who owned nothing prior to this marriage. Who duly dropped down dead within a very short space of time. No wills so the step family got the lot. My friend found family things, thing that were actually precious to them in  their local town, from antique shops to junk shops. The lot had gone, including family photos, sometimes it isn't just the money. And I believe that even if a will has been made, it needs re-doing if there is a new marriage and in this case the newly widowed husband would have had to make yet another will, maybe he would have, but these things do get left and I doubt that he expected to pop his clogs so quickly after his new bride.

I know someone really well who is married to someone I do not like at all, and I don't think that they do either, they both have kids by previous marriages and have made wills. I know darned well that as soon as their spouse is gone, that they will change their will and leave the rest to their own kids, because they can in the UK.

I won't even go over our particular family situation, that too with step parents and no wills, awful.

We have hit cultural differences on this thread............this 'moi moi moi' idea of the droit of being british and a superior system, bof, it isn't.................. the UK rules are not modern or humane, so nothing to crow about.

This thread is blocked as far as I am concerned.  We move to France where the population sees life in a very different way. What next, not liking driving on the right...... I'm kidding, but really, this has got up my nose about as much as that idea would.

[idun]

Parsnips, it is a discussion board, and we all have views. You obviously don't think along the same lines as I do about this.

So I have a question for you, is it right that 'some' parents will now be able to disinherit their children and yet the children, will not be able to wash their hands of said parents and say that they do not wish to care for their parents in their old age? The french will still expect that of the children, even if they have been disinherited........ so is that right?  Do you believe the very 'bright' folks at the EU discussed that too?

You know those highly paid folks who gave us the wine lake, and butter mountains and straight bananas and the worst making fisherman throwing perfectly good fish that are not the right ones back into the sea......those people, who are good at taking absolutely everything into account and being wise?