CU

[berkey]

Hi wonder if anyone can help.  We purchased a derelict house with a barn attached

in 2007 for renovation (Charente region). 

There was a valid CU at the time. 

When this ran out we obtained another CU.  Due to the recession we never did any of the

work apart from demolishing the barn, building a gable end wall, and making a

driveway.  We never renewed the CU after

it expired.  We put the house up for sale

(it has taken so long to sell because of the cost to connect electricity) and

accepted an offer just before Christmas, on condition that a CU would be

granted.  The purchaser agreed to pay for

all electrics and didn’t expect the commune to pay anything towards this. We

have just found out today that the sale has been cancelled because the mairee and

edf now say that it isn’t a house and won’t grant another CU.  As you can imagine we don’t know where to go

from here.  If this is the case we own a

field (a very expensive field)

Any help would be appreciated

[Val_2]

I would contact your local DDE office and take it up with them, they are the ones who have the final say not the Mairie! (Direction Départementale d'Environnement)

[berkey]

Thank you;  I'll contact them tomorrow.  I'll try anything now

[berkey]

Hi

Does

anyone know what a PVR is?  It seems this

ran out in January and the commune won’t pay anything towards the cost of the

electricity connection.  This wasn’t a

problem though because the buyer was prepared to pay the full amount..  It seems that this is not allowed though.

This is the reply from the mairee

Depuis

janvier 2015, les PVR n'existent plus et nous ne pouvons nous faire rembourser

par votre acheteur les 9000 € de frais de raccordement.

Pour une

petite commune comme la notre cela représente une somme énorme que nous ne

pouvons pas financer.

[Val_2]

Participation de Voirie Reseau perhaps. Spent 13years listening to all this stuff about participations towards new building costs by the proprietaire and commune which now is practically non-existant due to lack of finance. If there are building plots available to be built on and only one taker, they have to fund most if not all of the costs to join the nearby reseau, the next person to construct on adjoining plots will only pay the connection from the first one and so on.

[woolybanana]

Just been to the Mairie for something else and chatted about this problem; it seems that the communes are no longer allowed to put in roads etc and reclaim the costs. Nor, strangely, can a private individual offer to pay the costs themselves as that would create a private road, or somesuch.

All very frustrating and not entirely understandable though I suspect that communes were getting stiffed for high costs which they never managed to recover.

[Val_2]

Costs are huge for just about anything to do with the utilities,roads and general infrastructure of communes. I saw so many estimates for road re-surfacing over the years and the costs were unbelieveable although I do have to say, the roads are very well built and they are not just patched up here and there but completely replaced as patching is un-economic. My new neighbours built a house in the orchard across the lane from me, the distance to their water meter from my water connection is about 20m.The bill for putting in the water,telephone and electric down the same trench along with the mains drainage came to nearly €22,000 on top of their new build costs and then they had to have a pump fitted to push the sewage and dirty water back up to flow away because the water company didn't notice the land sloped down towards them from us just enough to stop a natural flow and that cost quite a few thousand more euros on top. They did get €3000 participation from the commune as it was nearly four years ago now but that was all.

[berkey]

Thank you for all your replies, unfortunately I’m no

wiser.  The problem isn’t with the road, it’s

the electrics. 

The mairee says that since January 2015 the PVR exists and

the town doesn’t have to pay towards the cost. 

This wasn’t a problem as the buyer agreed to pay the whole amount.  But was told this wasn’t allowed.

Personally I can’t see why this would be a problem.

I just don’t know where to look to find out what we can do

to overturn this.

The mairee doesn’t answer emails and the notaire hasn’t

returned any of my calls

We seem to have just reached a dead end

[Loiseau]

Can you get someone to phone the Mairie for you? In my experience, the French are not great at responding to emails.

Angela

[Foxie]

'Depuis janvier 2015, les PVR n'existent plus et nous ne pouvons nous faire rembourser par votre acheteur les 9000 € de frais de raccordement.'

'The mairee says that since January 2015 the PVR exists and the town doesn’t have to pay towards the cost.'

No - what the mairie said was that as of Jan 15, the old PVR process has been abolished because there's a different system in place now, which no longer involves commune claiming costs back from the purchaser.

But I don't think this is an issue, you're wasting your time worrying about this. Not surprisingly the commune isn't going to pay for the electricity supply but that doesn't mean electricity can't be connected, it just means it's nothing to do with the mairie. If a CU is granted and building goes ahead, the cost of connecting electricity will be added to the taxe d'amenagement which is payable when the project is complete.

Or that's my understanding at least. The CU is the issue.

It does mean that EDF won't put in a supply until planning permission is in place and all the documents are signed, but that's logical because what's the point in paying for an electricity supply if you can't build a house.

A lot of mairies don't reply to emails.

[Val_2]

Without seeing the property or the area its hard to comment about electricity but new connections if there are no nearby pylons is very expensive and before, the commune had to contribute a part. Now things have changed to austerity measures and if no further buildings are to go up such as a lotissement etc,its not an attractive project nor viable for the commune to get involved with just for a private individual. You need to get some estimates done from EDF as to the true costs of connection and of course the CONSUEL will also be involved if there is nothing existing at the moment anyway. Sometimes the costs can be lowered if the private individual takes care of the excavations himself and the EDF contractors do the installations, you will have to ask them. As for dealing with the mairie, they are usually very busy and actually making an appointment in person is far more productive than sending an email

[berkey]

Thank you for all your replies.  I agree I can’t see a problem with the buyer

paying for the electrics.

My main problem is trying to speak to someone.  I have tried ringing the notaire and left

messages but no one rings back, I have emailed but no one replies.  I have emailed the mairee (translating on

computer),  I can’t ring him because he

doesn’t speak English.  I have tried

ringing the DDT in Cognac but they never answer.

I’m just at a dead end. 

I had the address for they buyer so I have written to him, I just hope

he replies.

Angela

Thanks Angela but no I don’t know anyone who speaks French.

[Hereford]

berkey: If you have been phoning today then you won't get a reply - it is a public holiday!!  Try again on Monday.

[Val_2]

Its no good just ringing or emailing here, you need to get along in person to all the authorities concerned and sort it out face to face, its the only sure method of getting something done whether its dealing with the secu,gendarmes,mairie or schools!

[Patf]

Val is right - face to face is the only way. And try to find someone to take with you who speaks french.

In my experience there's usually someone at the Mairie who understands english un peu.

Otherwise you're wasting all your efforts.

[Foxie]

+1 for face to face, and try to arrange some kind of interpreter because it's quite complicated stuff. Sorry to be blunt but it was not understanding how things work that got you into the mess in the first place, so now it's important to properly understand it to see if there is a way out and if so, exactly what you need to do. The mairie should know the answers in French but it's not their job to translate complicated stuff into English.

And this may sound a bit harsh too but really, don't rely on googletranslate for anything important. You can so easily get completely the wrong end of the stick when you translate from French to English, it can give you the exact opposite meaning if the construction of the sentence is quite complex, and googletranslating your English emails into French can lose a lot in translation too. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of mairies take one look at googletranslated emails, fail to understand them and put them straight in the bin. They're busy enough answering questions where they do understand what's being asked, without bothering about the ones where they don't.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Foxie"]'Depuis janvier 2015, les PVR n'existent plus et nous ne pouvons nous faire rembourser par votre acheteur les 9000 € de frais de raccordement.' 'The mairee says that since January 2015 the PVR exists and the town doesn’t have to pay towards the cost.' No - what the mairie said was that as of Jan 15, the old PVR process has been abolished because there's a different system in place now, which no longer involves commune claiming costs back from the purchaser. [/quote]

Agreed, thats my understanding of the text.

It could be a positive thing for your buyers, the cost of connection could well be a lot less now for them, sure there are probably some new taxes to be paid but €9K's Worth?

I had a 400 amp supply brought in for 7 apartments and the services généraux a just over a year ago, it ended up,costing only €900 and some change, there was a réfaction of 40% which amounted to €500ish which brought the bill right down, it was something new in 2007 ans the devi I had from them in 2004 was higher but they did seem to have upped  their barème of charges by a similar amount.

Quoting from the facture/

Le montant facturé tient compte d'une réfaction prise en charge par ERDF, qui correspond à la part du coût des travaux de raccordement couverte par le tarif d'utilisation des résaux publics délectricité, dans les conditions prévues par l'arrêté du 28 août 2007 modifié. C'est réfaction est égale à 40%.

[berkey]

Thanks again everyone for your replies.

I didn’t know it was a public holiday so I’ll try the

notaire again on Monday.

I know it would be best to make appointments and see

people face to face, but I don’t live in France, I’m in Manchester, so trying

to do what I can from here.

I need to speak to the notaire first to find out exactly

what the problem is, then at least I’ll know what I’m dealing with.

Hopefully I’ll get to speak to them on Monday

[Daft Doctor]

When we had our new house built, I was able to get a devis for the new electrical connection direct from ERDF by applying online at https://connect-racco.erdfdistribution.fr/prac-internet/login/

Admittedly there wasn't much groundwork to be done, but the cost of getting supply to our boundary was only 860 euros, and connecting from the boundary to inside the house was another 370. I'm sure this type of work is part subsidised by the government. Maybe you should get a devis done then take it from there with your buyer?

[woolybanana]

berkey, I was wondering whether there might be a positive way forward here. If there are several plots of land which their owners would wish to develop, then it might be possible to get some sort of a cost sharing deal going and approach the mairie with that, thus all owners pay a part of the charges and the council could then afford to advance the money.

After all, all the owners must be concerned by this ruling?

On the other hand, if the problem is just electricity, I dont understand how the council could stop the owner(s) doing a deal with the EDF directly and then regrant the permissions on that basis.

[berkey]

Thanks for that but no, there is only our plot of land

with our house/barn on it.  Our buyer has

agreed to pay the full amount for the electrics so it wouldn’t cost the commune

anything but apparently this isn’t allowed, but I can’t seem to find out why.

[Foxie]

Since the mairie has already had a go at explaining this and you seem set on disregarding it, why don't you ask EDF/ERDF? They might have a different and clearer way of explaining the new rules.

At the end of the day EDF is a public utility. It's the government that sets the parameters of what it must do, what it cannot do, and how it charges for the services it provides. As I understand it, the individual's contribution towards the cost of installing electricity supplies from new is now collected by the state, together with all the other incidental costs associated with developing new residential accommodation, via the tax on new buildings. It is longer paid direct to EDF, as used to happen. Neither EDF nor the mairie can make exceptions. They probably don't like it any more than you do but it's how the new system works.

[berkey]

Hi Foxie

I’m not disregarding anything. The only person I have spoken

to so far has been the imobilier who advised that I speak to the notaire as

they were the ones who received the information from all parties involved.  This is what I have been trying to do. Once I

have the full story hopefully I will know where to go next.

The mairee advised that I contact DDT in Cognac.   I have also been trying to do this, again

with no luck so far.

[Chancer]

You do nothing, the purchaser when he is ready applies to ERDF for a raccordement.

You have said they are willing to pay the full cost, if they want to know how much then I can refer you the the ERDF barème des charges, just do a Google.fr search for it, if you have no luck then come back and I will find it for you, I'm on a coffee break at the moment.

There is absolutely no point in you applying for the raccordement, it will only confuse matters and ERDF are more than capable of cocking things up without external encouragement, in fact it seems to be their raison d'être.

Dont make grief for yourself, its the purchasers responsability to find these things out for themselves, carry on like you are with all the miscommunications between parties like the Mairie, Notaire etc that have nothing to do with itand you could end up with the purchaser pursuing you because "you said it would cost €X"

Just do an Amanda Lamb on them, "oh your friendly local builder will take care of all that, he says it wont cost any more than €50 and you can have a swimming pool for €100" [:D]

It is simplicity itself to initially apply for a raccordement, the grief will surely follow although it shouldnt, they are just incompetent since they were privatised, keep well out of it, life is too short.

[Chancer]

But surely the electrical connection is secondary to the real problem that the Mairie, if indeed its theie decision wont grant another C.U. and are saying it is not a habitation, I'm guessing that they are saying it was never a habitation.

Was an electric supply ever present at the property? That for me can be the only reason to be getting hung up about electrics for a building that they wont presently allow you to use as a house, if it once had a residential supply then its probably good news for you, if it never did then I think that is the problem. If its a long way from the public réseaux of water, sewage and electric they are not going to grant a CU as I am guessing they would have to bear a proportion of the possibly huge costs.

Thats why you arent allowed to build in the middle of nowhere, someone somewhere has to pay to bring the services to site, when its a lotissment its all factored in to the price of each terrain viabilisé.