Good News - Forced Registration

[mascamps.com]

Interesting development. I can see that if that's the case it would make some sense for GdF to do the "star" inspection in that they are already here on the ground.

I came across the star rating document a while back and it's quite different from normal GdF terms. As regards ourselves, we would be over the moon to get a proper star rating for 45€ or so.

The problem is that the star rating document that I saw is very, very different from GdF's epi rating and you could end up in the situation where someone had, say 3 epi yet only 1 star (or indeed no stars). As an example of the area where this would arise is the technology in the room aspect (raised in another current thread on LF). Taking a quite scoot down the checklist, the following is my interpretation of some aspects of the requirements:

1. a guest phone must be in the building for 1 star up (cordless for 3 star);

2. colour TV for 3 star (not sure if this is for the building or room);

3. hifi & video for 5 star (presumably lower down now as it's an oldish document);

4. car parking nearby for 1 star up; private parking for 3 star up;

5. balcony/terrace/garden from 3 star.

And so it goes on. Sizes of beds are specified as are room sizes. It's a long checklist.

I gather that CdHs don't normally have TVs in the rooms yet, going by the checklist that I have, it is a requirement for 3 stars and an aerial socket per room is required for 2 stars (presumably these days you'd actually need the TV to get the two stars). Probably similar for telephones; even a 1 star place must have a phone for guest use in the building from my reading of the checklist: how many small CdH's will have that?

For those interested, the document is available in the Conseil General or I could scan and mail the three page checklist if anyone would like a copy today. It's called "Classement des Meubles de Tourisme".

However, what will be the situation if the epi rating is wildly different from the star rating for a large number of places? To give you an idea of how drastically different your rating might be, our place was a 2 star hotel a while back and I think is broadly equivalent to 2 epi. However, taking a broad brush run through the checklist, we have 1 star covered, almost all of 2 star, a fair chunk of 3 star and 4 star plus some 5 star things; as to where we'd end up, it's a darned good question.

Taking Miki's comments from the other day, I wonder what the tourist accomodation landscape will look like if this is brought in and people can get the stars with/without the epi rating? At first glance, I think some people might end up going head to head with the big boys in hotels and restaurants when they really don't want to.

 

 

Arnold

 

[Quillan]

I'm not too sure about what you have quoted. I rather think you may have read something to do with hotels by accident as I have never come accross any of this unless it's to do with hotels but I am willing to be corrected.

Sure we have TV's and things available to the guests but to put TV sockets in every bedroom, they will want a mini bar next. This is why I think you may have read, by accident, something not to do with B&B's/Cd'h.

Help - Wheres Miki?

[mascamps.com]

Ah, but that's the problem. If I understand correctly what has been said here to date, they are proposing to give out "stars"; as far as I know, the guide I'm quoting for is the one that specifies the star rating for ALL tourist accomodation.

Yes, it does come from a "hotel" background but then CdH's are basically baby hotels. OK, lots less rooms, it's in your own house, etc., but at the end of the day tiny hotels. I think that historically GdF got an exemption from the full hotel star ratings (hence they use epi rather than etoile).

Just mailed the relevant bit to Miki; I'll mail you a copy too.

As I say, if this standard is to be applied to CdHs, there's a potential big problem ahead as clearly most CdH's aren't really set up to fall in line with this kind of standard so you could well end up with lots of unhappy people sitting at 3 epi but one star in extreme cases.

 

Arnold

 

[BJSLIV]

The classifications / requirements  you refer to  are the ones shown in the document that I mentioned earlier for the Aveyron Region and refer to the national grading standards for furnished holiday lets which have neeb around since 1993.

See Pages 29 plus in

http://www.tourisme-aveyron.com/fr/pro/meuble.pdf

They have a similar document which defines their approach to Chambred D'Hotes which does not have this detiled spec, but does refer to the six bed maximum.

http://www.tourisme-aveyron.com/fr/pro/chambres.pdf

Their advice to those aiming to sell into the UK market is also interesting / amusing

http://www.tourisme-aveyron.com/fr/pro/demande.pdf

http://www.tourisme-aveyron.com/fr/pro/offre.pdf

http://www.tourisme-aveyron.com/fr/pro/caracteristiques.pdf

[Quillan]

Well I can't speak about Gites and Hotels but these are the recomendations passed to all Prefectures for Chambres D'Hote from central government which I believe were written in conjunctin with GDF. The first part is the original in French with a English translation thereafter. I cut an pasted it so the formatting might be a bit wonky.

 

L’OUVERTURE ET L’EXPLOITATION DE

CHAMBRES D’HOTES

Il n’existe pas de définition légale de la chambre d’hôtes mais celle-ci s’entend comme une chambre aménagée chez l’habitant en vue d’accueillir les touristes et de leur offrir des nuitées comprenant le petit déjeuner.

 

Attention : pour les informations concernant la réglementation applicable aux

exploitants agricoles, contacter la Chambre d’agriculture du département

concerné.

 

I. CONDITIONS D’ÉTABLISSEMENT

A. Conditions tenant aux locaux

 

1.      Lieu d’implantation

 

En principe, les chambres d’hôtes doivent être situées dans une zone rurale à vocation touristique. Exceptionnellement, elles peuvent se situer en zone urbaine à condition d’être implantées à proximité ou dans le périmètre de quartiers touristiques ou historiques.

 

Dans tous les cas, sont exclues les chambres dépourvues de jardin (de terrasses en zone urbaine) ou situées dans des lotissements (l’extérieur du bâtiment devant en principe correspondre aux spécificités de la région).

2.      Équipements et entretien

 

Les chambres doivent être équipées d’un lit et de meubles (par exemple :

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[Quillan]

For those that are interested this is for Table D'Hote, same source as the Chambres D'Hotes info post.

inforeg, la réponse à vos questions juridiques

Rubrique ACTVITÉS RÉGLEMENTÉES dernière mise à jour le 05/03/03

© inforeg – 2002/2003

L’EXPLOITATION D’UNE TABLE D’HÔTES

Pour compléter leurs prestations d’hébergement, les propriétaires de gîtes ruraux

ou de chambres d’hôtes peuvent, le cas échéant, créer une table d’hôtes.

I. PRINCIPE

Il s’agit de servir, dans une salle à manger de caractère familial, un repas

traditionnel à base de produits régionaux, issus autant que possible de produits

soit d’exploitations agricoles, soit de potagers.

Pour distinguer l’activité de table d’hôtes de celle de restauration traditionnelle,

quatre conditions cumulatives doivent être respectées :

- constituer un complément de l’activité d’hébergement ;

- proposer un seul menu (sans possibilité de choisir les entrées, plats ou

desserts) et une cuisine de qualité composée d’ingrédients du terroir ;

- servir le repas à la table familiale (il n’est donc pas possible de disposer

plusieurs tables dans une salle réservée à cet effet) ;

- offrir une capacité d’accueil limitée à celle de l’hébergement.

Si l’une des conditions n’est pas respectée, la table d’hôtes devient un

restaurant.

II. CONDITIONS D’OUVERTURE

A. Statut juridique

Un particulier désireux de créer une table d’hôtes doit demander son

immatriculation au registre du commerce et des sociétés (RCS), dès lors qu’il

exerce cette activité à titre de profession habituelle (c’est-à-dire de manière

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[Mpprh]

Hi

this is the answer to the question asked further up this thread :

My local tourist office publishes an annual list of herbergements. The 2005 version states " Les herbergements dans ce quide sont agréés sous le label Gites de France ou Clévacances. "

Peter

[Miki]

[quote]Hithis is the answer to the question asked further up this thread :My local tourist office publishes an annual list of herbergements. The 2005 version states " Les herbergements dans ce quide sont agr...[/quote]

Thanks Peter,

So as is normal here and in many other areas. One has to be with one of those two associations to be allowed in to the local tourism books and offices. That has been quite widespread for a number of years a point we all talked about, a couple of years ago or so ago.

 

[Quillan]

Just to say the links on the bits I posted don't work but it came from the Chambre of Commerce site (try taking the 3 out after the www bit) and they used to work. I forgot who posted the original link a year or so back but the credit goes to them not me although the post must have got lost in the forum conversion (shame we can't have an archive on this one).

[Miki]

Miki - I shall be going the whole hog (with GDF), it would be silly not to.

Get them round PDQ, otherwise you might be lost in the rush !!

No, your only problem in joining now, is that you will not be in any guide books (regional national and the AA, the last one is dependant on attaining 3 epis) until next year BUT by getting them around now, you can have everything ready for entry to G de Fr. They will be honest with you and let you now exactly what they want, simply do it, from what I have seen of your place it will not cost a lot to do, if anything at all but they always have a surprise up their sleeves !

Simple things like a bedside table and reading lamp for each occupant, all showers must have glass (good plastic?) doors and basically you are getting there. I haven't actually been inside your place but you will sail through.

[Coco]

Simple things like a bedside table and reading lamp for each occupant, all showers must have glass (good plastic?) doors and basically you are getting there. I haven't actually been inside your place but you will sail through.

And I was just about to phone them too - but we only have a shower curtain in one of our rooms!!  Is that new?  We stayed at a GdF last year and didn't have plastic doors... in fact thinking about it, we didn't have anything (it was an over-bath shower) and they often haven't had anything - is that a way round it?  And the place we stayed in was a 3 epi and the lady went round inspecting potential GdF, she was on the local Board!

 

[Miki]

And I was just about to phone them too - but we only have a shower curtain in one of our rooms!!  Is that new?  We stayed at a GdF last year and didn't have plastic doors... in fact thinking about it, we didn't have anything (it was an over-bath shower) and they often haven't had anything - is that a way round it?  And the place we stayed in was a 3 epi and the lady went round inspecting potential GdF, she was on the local Board!

Coco,

You see what can happen. I can quote for sure for two or three regions but after that one has to remember that in general, there is a guide on becoming a chambre d'hôte, the basics are in that booklet and after that regionalisation kicks in.

We started with normal shower curtains, we were asked to upgrade them, did so, then the following year, we had an inspection in which the regional director asked us, that to keep the 3 epis, he would advise us to have glass doors on all our showers. This cost a packet, especially as for one it meant a complete redesign of one shower room but........

It's like driving in a test really, the inspectors can get away with certain things (in their homes) but the examanees just need to get it nearly right in the test and simply follow the inspectors instructions. Get inspected and they will tell you what is required for you to gain what epis. The size of rooms are the only thing that can often keep the room to two epis.

As I said to Chris, you will be too late for this years guides obvioulsy but if you start now, you are in a good position to be ready for the new guide books for 2006.

Don't worry about this lady or that lady or where you once stayed and it was 3 epis but should have been 2 epis etc. Worry only about you and once you get established, let others worry about the standards and welcome you keep. The French, like any other nationality, know when a  place and persons are nice.

Epis or no Epis, you need the ratings to help pull in the guests, that's what they are for at the end of the day !  I know of 3, 4 Epis Chateau but I also know of a few little 2 Epis places that I would rather stay in, each to his own, as in all walks isn't it ?

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hello,

This is my first post here, as I've only just discovered you. However I think I'm fairly well qualified to amplify and explain what's going on, as I'm both V-P of our local Tourist Office and a member of the Administrative Council of Gites de France in my area.

As many of you have said, there are quite large variations in quality in what's on the market, and for some time, an ever increasing number of people have been just opening up, calling themselves B&B or Chambres d'Hotes without having any regard to rules or standards.

As you'll have seen on the long document that was put up, theoretically there ARE rules which must apply to all furnished accomodation in France, both "Meublés de Tourism" (furnished accommodation, of which Gites are a sub category, organised inspected and marked and publicised by Gites de France) and Chambres d'Hotes. (some of which are organised, inspected and marked by Gites de France also). As always in France, someone who causes a nuisance is more likely to have the rules applied rigorously than the maire's sister.!!!

About a couple of years ago, word came down that ALL accommodation offered for tourists to stay would have to be classified. This could either be done by Gites de France under their épis system, or by any other competent authority. However, the only competent authority at the time were the prefectures, but they had neither time nor inclination to thunder round the coutryside classying everyone. So department by department, they signed a convention with Clévacances to carry out this classification.

What this will mean in the future is that you will HAVE to be classified (in my opinion quite rightly) either by one or the other (I see no reason why one shouldn't be in both). Gites de France (absolutely wrongly IMO) are seeking to make it an "either/or" choice and for the moment CV are going along with that.

What else? In principle, to be classified as a B&B you are limited to 5/6 rooms. More than that you're deemed to be running a private guest house and are subject to hotels rules for fire precautions, and sanitary inspections etc and so - boring - forth. Gites de France sees B&B as being an essentially rural activity and won't consider accepting anyone in a town of more than about 1500 on the electoral roll. Clévacances will do so.

Phew!!! WHAT a long first post. Sorry.

Oh yes, by the way. Be aware that if you offer a TV for the exclusive use of your guests you have to pay the SACEM (performing rights society) for offering "public entertainment". Gites de France, who insist on TV for 4 épis, are DEEPLY embarrassed about this, as their rules in effect force 4 Epis members to pay SACEM.

Lastly, if you hear of "Charmance", it is the brand name that Gites de France are using to promote "their" B&Bs.

Another correction. The AA guide is an English translation of entries of 3 épis and upwards taken from the Gites de France book. GdF took out an agreement with the AA a couple of years ago, as they were getting a lot of stick (not least from me) for being parochial and not doing anything to promote their members' properties in the UK.

[Miki]

Ian,

Welcome and whilst thanking you for your post, you will have not realised perhaps that most of this was well known to most but not of course all ? This might be due to your not being au fait yet with the search facility perhaps?

To pick you up on a couple of points if I may :

 Lastly, if you hear of "Charmance", it is the brand name that Gites de France are using to promote "their" B&Bs. 

Yes, we have had the new panel on all our publicity, entrance and interior panels for the last year or so, it was lucky because for a while it looked like Café Couette was going to be the likely new name, luckily that got petitioned out.

Another correction. The AA guide is an English translation of entries of 3 épis and upwards taken from the Gites de France book. GdF took out an agreement with the AA a couple of years ago, as they were getting a lot of stick (not least from me) for being parochial and not doing anything to promote their members' properties in the UK.

What correction is that then Ian ? We all knew that the AA had taken, through an agreement with G de Fr, all B&B's of 3 epis or more, so what did you mean ?

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]Ian, Welcome and whilst thanking you for your post, you will have not realised perhaps that most of this was well known to most but not of course all ? This might be due to your not being au fait y...[/quote]

Hello Miki

You said

>What correction is that then Ian ? We all knew that the >AA had taken, through an agreement with G de Fr, all >

>B&B's of 3 epis or more, so what did you mean ?

Ah. sorry, I only read some 30 of the messages in this thread, and one of the posts, suggested that the AA was independent of Gites de France. While this WAS corrected, the exact relationship wasn't mentioned, nor was the fact that it was only 3+ épis. And unless I am mistaken your phrasing seems a touch ambiguous. "AA had taken". But I may well have misunderstood your phraseology. If so, I apologise.

Also, I've probably handled the quoting system wrong, if so, I'm sorry. Any link as to how you ike it done?

[Miki]

Don't worry about the quoting system it is one of the foibles on the site, best to cut and paste what you wnat to highlight from a previous post.

 And unless I am mistaken your phrasing seems a touch ambiguous. "AA had taken". But I may well have misunderstood your phraseology. If so, I apologise.

Well to put it like this, the AA had wanted a fairly simple way of getting their book on B&B in France re-booted, it was stale and was not going far, so a tie up with G de Fr supported both companies and so AA took all the 3 epis and above chambre d'hôtes from them and relaunched their Bed and Breakfast in France and we are glad they did of course but I could not say that they give us too much business but it is free of course, at least it is better than when we paid for it ! They still want money of course if you want to put a colour pcicture in the guide book.

I hope that clears it up?

 

[Coco]

Whether to go with Clevacances or Gites de France?  Ian has pretty much borne out what my local tourist office explained to me as the difference.  GdF are virtually ALL in rural locations and CV are virtually ALL in urban (or large village) locations.  Certainly seems to be the case round here.

Welcome to you Ian, I'm sure you'll be almost as useful a source of information as Miki

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]Don't worry about the quoting system it is one of the foibles on the site, best to cut and paste what you wnat to highlight from a previous post. And unless I am mistaken your phrasing seems a tou...[/quote]

Hi Miki,

You said

>Well to put it like this, the AA had wanted a fairly simple way of getting their book on B&B in France re-booted, it was stale and was not going far, so a tie up with G de Fr supported both companies and so AA took all the 3 epis and above chambre d'hôtes from them and relaunched their Bed and Breakfast in France.

=======

Ansolutely clear, the only problem being (rather as I once had in an English end of term report - "the dawn of legibility in his handwriting serves to reveal his total inability to spell") that your clarification only heightens the contrast with what we were told in our local GdF committee meeting. Remember that when the GdF offices closed in Picadilly some 10 years ago, they had NO presence whatsoever on the British Market, and so guides like Alastair Sawday and the AA were almost the only anglophone source of info for Brits seeking B&B here. At several of our AGMs there were some pretty angry voices raised here, especially over the BAB débâcle.

What WE were led to understand therefore, is that GdF were able to persuade AA to do a deal, so that GdF could reasonably claim to have a presence again in the UK.

Of course, both could be true!! A marriage truly made in heaven therefore.

As you say, however, the AA guide has so far brought us not one single booking. Mind you, we do aim fairly squarely at the French, preferring to be a slightly exotic location for them, rather than a safe haven for non-francophone Brits. For all that, Sawday's Guide does us very well despite its high costs.

To bring this back on topic, however, the real benefit to us of being part of GdF, (quite apart from the FF34k conversion grant we got) is that we are firmly part of the system. We're classified, we keep to the rules paying our taxe de Séjour and declaring every penny for income tax and so we're seen as being __part__ of local life, instead of unfair competition.

When Clévacances has been established in this area for a couple of years, we'll see better how it all works. For the moment it's so new that one is either in GdF or unclassified, which makes it hard for me to judge how things will work out.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]Whether to go with Clevacances or Gites de France? Ian has pretty much borne out what my local tourist office explained to me as the difference. GdF are virtually ALL in rural locations and CV are v...[/quote]

Hi Coco,

Thanks for the welcome.

As for the relative distribution of the two organisations, I think that's to some extent historical. I suspect that in the future Clévacances will spread into GdF territory, as ALL rural B&Bs have to become classified. Remember quite a number left GdF to save their annual subs, and now they have to be classified, may well prefer not to be seen to be coming back cap in hand. Some will stop, I imagine, too. I also think that sometimes GdF can appear arbitrary and high handed and that might also put potential members off.

[Miki]

In this region, I could not reccommend for anyone to actually join Clévacances. We have had friends join, who have had a dreadful response from their advertising with them. When we have talked with others at our local G de F meetings, many of them say just how poorly their friends had done with Clévacances.

None of our friends are now with them and I have to say, they are much cheaper of course but not much point in being cheaper if it doesn't perform for you, whereas G de Fr do deliver, well they do for many of us here.

Looking forward to our Bourse Touristique day this year. Annually we collect all the guff from the hundreds of tourist businesses in this region, inc some parts of Normandy but of course mainly Brittany to display back at our place. This year, it is finally close to home, it is to be held at the Grand Aquarium in Saint Malo and free passes to members are given out to tour this excellent place after collecting the bumph. Other perks this year will be cheap or even some free, passes to Jersey and or Guernsey. We have had new mattresses (again !) and another washing machine delivered here at excellent prices last year and all at pretty unbeatable prices for members only. Lots to think about....

Yes Sawday's can work, not so well around here though. He is now seen by many here as a a bit of a hypocrite who has gone completely against what he first said, made him different from other guides, whereas he is now mainstream and looking to make profits like any other tourist guide. The days of exclusivity for being with them have now well and truly gone, more's the pity perhaps but it was only a matter of time until he had to make it subscription I suppose. It still has its afficianados though, especially for the more way out places and ones with unusual themes, no, not the the person, the B&B !

[Coco]

Looking forward to our Bourse Touristique day this year. Annually we collect all the guff from the hundreds of tourist businesses in this region, inc some parts of Normandy but of course mainly Brittany to display back at our place. This year, it is finally close to home, it is to be held at the Grand Aquarium in Saint Malo and free passes to members are given out to tour this excellent place after colecting the bumph. Other perks this year will be cheap or even some free, passes to Jersey and or Guernsey. We have had new mattresses (again !) and another washing machine delivered here at excellent prices last year and all at pretty unbeatable prices for members only. Lots to think about....

So not only will I get 100's more bookings by joining   But there are some hidden perks to being a member too!!  We're having a new kitchen built in our barn and I intend to get a new (larger) dishwasher and (larger) washing machine, to cope with the extra 2 rooms we will have.  Sounds as though I should wait til we've signed up with GdF before I get them???  BTW Miki, you say we're too late for the guide this year, but would we get put on the internet guide?

[Miki]

Yes, the guides are already out for this year so that it quite right but I cannot be sure about the website, as that seems to take all it wants, direct from the guide book. I should ask someone when they come to inspect but the likelihood is that you will get 3 local ladies come to inspect your house, who probably wont be too au fait with the internet and you will have to call your regional HQ in the end for the answer, unless Ian knows ?

We bought some Whirlpool appliances, which have worked fine so far (fingers crossed) we had Miele before but this time we bought two new ones and two Mieles would have cost plenty of money. The matresses are good quality (Epeda) and more importantly, you know as they have come through the G de Fr publicity, then obviously they will be accepted by them. Plenty of shops and choice out there but with free delivery and full back up, it didn't seem worth looking to buy elsewhere, especially as even Carrefour couldn't beat the w/m prices, well according to the boss anyway!!

I'm looking forward to seeing the new shark tank for the first time, wonder if I will recognise anyone

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]In this region, I could not reccommend for anyone to actually join Clévacances. We have had friends join, who have had a dreadful response from their advertising with them. When we have talked with ot...[/quote]

You said

None of our friends are now with them and I have to say, they are much cheaper of course but not much point in being cheaper if it doesn't perform for you, whereas G de Fr do deliver, well they do for many of us here.

=========

Couldn't agree with you more.

I suspect, however, that what is true for you on the Brittany/Normandy borders (if I read your post right) may well be completely different here in the Limousin. For example, our GdF sub is way below yours, and the Clévacances one ... I'm afraid I don't know.

Bourses Touristiques are excellent, aren't they. We had our first in Argentat last year! Can I ask you to tell me how they're organised, as (putting on my OT hat) we had fewer people there than we'd have liked. What sort of visits and so on. That might well encourage more people to come.

Sawday. I couldn't agree with you more over the evolution of their prices and the changes in their attitudes. But a quick scan through my database shows me the following figures. Guide Routard in first position with 29% of my total lets, then equal second, my web site and repeats with 16% each, then Sawday with 14% and finally 5th, Gites de France with 11%. But in fact these figures hide the reality. Because we only have 3 rooms we get booked up very quickly, and our GdF contacts tend to come later then the others, so we're often full by the time they call! Anyway, coming back to Sawday, 14% of my annual lettings is a good return even for the exhorbitant price they charge.

For me the BIG plus with Sawday is the emphasis they put in encouraging people to try to speak french, and on encouraging francophiles. We very often have "mixed nationality" meals, and we much prefer it if people who come here make a minimal effort to speak the language of the country in which they find themselves. With NON sawday guests, I find it sad when two people force 6 other french guests to speak english. However, I guess that your clientele may be very different.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]Looking forward to our Bourse Touristique day this year. Annually we collect all the guff from the hundreds of tourist businesses in this region, inc some parts of Normandy but of course mainly Britta...[/quote]

Hi Coco

You asked

>perks for being a member too!! We're having a new kitchen built in our barn and I intend to get a new (larger) dishwasher and (larger) washing machine, to cope with the extra 2 rooms we will have. Sounds as though I should wait til we've signed up with GdF before I get them??? BTW Miki, you say we're too late for the guide this year, but would we get put on the internet guide?

========

Maybe in Miki's area things are different. here we get a booklet, with a number of offers, loads of mattresses, but I don't remember getting offers of dishwashers or washing machines. But yes, you'll get offered all sorts of goodies. Look VERY hard at the prices and compare with what you can get on offer through the internet, if price is your chief concern. I got a fantastic price on a cooker hood fan through a cut price site I found using kelkoo.fr.

BUT, beware. I find that being able to phone the guy who supplied my (you fill it in) and have him drop everything to come round to look after you because he knows you can't do your business without your (hob unit, oven, fridge, washing machine tumbler drier) is worth an enormous amount of money. As it happens, our nearest electrical supplier is also our nearest competitor or colleague, depending on how you look at it, and not only did he come round immediately when our fridge misbehaved, but fought tooth and claw on our behalf to see that the manufacturers replaces the defective parts free. I would be a little surprised if you got that service from the suppliers recommended by GdF, but perhaps I'm misjudging them.

As for getting new customers, yes, I'm sure that joining GdF will pay.

As far as dates are concerned, you're far too late for thi year. We've just received our request for entry changes for the 2006 guide. As for the Internet, I think that depends upon where you are. I do know that here in this area, Philippe can usually get an entry in within about a week of the end of formalities. But I think that's exceptional. I suggest that you pick up the phone to your local GdF "antenne" and ask them how long it would take, and so on. Given the fact that we've just had our form, I think there is a risk that your 2006 entry in the guide would show "en cours de classement" instead of your epis if you've not finished the formalities within the next

month or so. Also worth asking.

[Will]

That's interesting about the Sawday guides.

Before we even considered buying a holiday home in France, let alone living and working here, we used to travel around with the Sawday guide (1st preference) and Gites de France booklet - though in reality I don't think there was really any difference in standard between the places we stayed in out of the two. But I'd always try and enquire and book in French, with both. Two experiences doing that with Sawday establishments - one lady, in Normandy, replied along the lines of 'Oh, you don't need to bother with that Froggy stuff luv, we're all English here', and she wasn't kidding either (to be fair to Sawday, she came out of the book the following year, and I don't think it was entirely her own decision). With another, in the Loire, we conversed in rather dodgy French for quite a while over welcome drinks until in the end she replied in perfect English - she was English-born and bilingual. A much more pleasant experience.

But both told us even then, when the Sawday book did its best to present its impartial, recommendation-only image, that it charged quite heavily for an entry. But it worked, so they paid up. Now it seems a bit more open about its charging, but is still a good guide that I think we'd want to be in if we did B&B for the tourist market.

Interesting too that it was Clévacances that dear old Nigel applied to for, and failed to get, a grading for his latest venture.