Drinks licences.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

For what it's worth, I've just checked up with our local Customs office on the rules which apply to serving drinks in a B&B.

In effect, there are four different situations which can apply to us.
1. Coffee tea etc served at breakfast
2. Wine, aperitifs served with dinner
3. Drinks sold/given to welcome guests when they arrive
4. Drinks sold to clients through the day.

The french authorities take the view that coffee etc served free at breakfast is in fact included in the price of the room, and that therefore, logically we are selling these drinks. What is a trifle bizarre, is that under French law, breakfast is not considered a meal.

So legally, at breakfast we are NOT serving a beverage to accompany a meal, but merely serving a beverage which is to be drunk in situ. The same situation applies to cases 3 and 4. In each case, we are selling drinks "to be consumed on the premises".

To be allowed to do this, we need to be in possession of a "License à consommer sur place du premier catégorie" This  costs nothing and is automatically granted on demand. You just need to ask your local customs office for the document to request it.

The remaining case is that of drinks served with dinner (and or lunch). Technically, there are two cases, non alcoholic drinks and alcoholic drinks up to the strength of sherry, port etc. on the one hand and  "alcools forts" spirits on the other. To be able to serve any drinks with your meals, (lunch or supper) you need to get a "Petite License de Restauration". This is  available, also free of charge, and is granted automatically. You get it from the local Mairie.

Technically, you require a different license for spirits. I've not investigated this, so if you do want to pour a generous snifter of malt whisky or cognac after the meal, then you'll need to check up with your "Service des Douanes, Department de Droits Indirectes" (if I remember correctly the name what the lady told me).

There is one last case, which might just apply. If you want to cook using alcoholic liquor above that authorised for domestic use, then you need to apply for a "U.T.". To be granted it, you need to be able to prove that you are "in the business". Normally you would need to be on the lists of the local CCI, but of course B&Bs normally aren't as we are not normally considered to be a business. So the customs officer to whom I spoke said that if she had sight of my Gites de France registration documents (in my case supplemented by the current handbook), together with corroborative evidence of my status, she would regard that as sufficient evidence. This may not be the case everywhere, of course. My experience in general with the local Customs office, is that they are so used to be treated with suspicion, fear and loathing by the French and so used to British B&B owners making no effort to comply with French licensing laws,  that they bend over backwards to help those who DO approach them with a smile and a joke.

[Coco]

To be allowed to do this, we need to be in possession of a "License à consommer sur place du premier catégorie" This  costs nothing and is automatically granted on demand. You just need to ask your local customs office for the document to request it.

i'm not arging with you Ian, but the same old story in France.  It is difficult to generalise.  My experience in Manche was totally different.  I had heard on this very forum that I needed a certificate from customs even to serve tea and coffee.  Duly went along to see them and had the discussion with the officer I saw, she told me that I didn't need anything for tea and coffee but I insisted I did.  She asked her colleague, he told me I needed nothing, again I insisted that I was sure I needed something - they then buzzed upstairs to the boss and he said I needed the petit licence, which would cover me for everything from tea and coffee to wine, beer, cider and fortified wines to be served with meals.

The remaining case is that of drinks served with dinner (and or lunch). Technically, there are two cases, non alcoholic drinks and alcoholic drinks up to the strength of sherry, port etc. on the one hand and  "alcools forts" spirits on the other. To be able to serve any drinks with your meals, (lunch or supper) you need to get a "Petite License de Restauration". This is  available, also free of charge, and is granted automatically. You get it from the local Mairie.

Before I even ventured to the customs house I went to the Mairie because i had heard (again on this forum) that the petit licence was issued from the Mairie.  Not a clue, hadn't even heard of it and told me to carry on doing what I was doing without one.   Which is how I ended up going to the customs people in the end, and which is where I was issued with the petit licence (as you say, free of charge) to cover everything from tea and coffee to fortified wine.

Different departements, different experiences - c'est la vie en France

[Will]

Again, not arguing, but the interpretations vary between offices or officials rather than having a standardised departmental policy. We are in the same department as Coco and my experience of getting a drinks licence was identical to Ian's rather than what Coco experienced at a (presumably) different office.

We only, for a variety of reasons, serve breakfast. I asked the Douanes et Droits Indirect at St-Hilaire-du-Harcouët (the office is now closed) and got the free, petit licence restaurant categories 1 & 2 just like that. They totally agreed that was the correct one for us, though I don't think they had ever issued one before...

[Miki]

We actually have a grande licence due to us once being a resto.

I can't agree that one is allowed to sell alcoholic drinks without it being part of a meal or did you mean soft drinks Ian ?

We have had this discussion before and the GdF stance here in Brittany, is that with table d'hôtes (the only reason you would have a licence of any kind except for the breakfast issue) you have to have a licence for serving drinks with meals. With table d'hôte (GdF) it is obligatory to offer coffee and wine in the price of the meal but you can sell different wines to your guests if they prefer something better than table wine.

The stance by our local douanes and GdF is quite simple and that is, if you were to be able to sell alcoholic drinks, beers, wines etc during the day and without a meal, that would put you in a bar or hotel category and that of course means a licence 4, which no CdH would be allowed to operate.

I fully understand that position but have witnessed a few people who act like they are a bar, none of them being French by the way. I have seen it in small campings and B&B's without any licence 3 or 4 being present. I am not sure how serious this would be seen if caught but as French licensing laws are quite rigid.......................

 

[Coco]

 

Again, not arguing, but the interpretations vary between offices or officials rather than having a standardised departmental policy. We are in the same department as Coco and my experience of getting a drinks licence was identical to Ian's rather than what Coco experienced at a (presumably) different office.

We only, for a variety of reasons, serve breakfast. I asked the Douanes et Droits Indirect at St-Hilaire-du-Harcouët (the office is now closed) and got the free, petit licence restaurant categories 1 & 2 just like that. They totally agreed that was the correct one for us, though I don't think they had ever issued one before...

Just so we don't confuse other Manchois B&B owners reading this thread - I think if you re-read Ian and my previous postings Bill, it is you and I who had the same experience, not you and Ian.  Ian says you can get the petit licence from the Mairie, but like you I had to go to the Douanes to get this and none of the front desk staff seemed to know how to complete the form, so I think mine was probably the first that had been issued, certainly in a long time!  I'm glad it seems to be consistent within the departement at least! 

[Miki]

In the Dordogne, we could have got our first breakfast licence from the Mairie but he couldn't issue a grande licence for the resto. So he walked me along the road to the Tabac, who were allowed to issue them, providing you had all neccessary bumph, who insisted we had to go to the Douanes nearly 50km away for that particular licence.

The Mayor had a few words, a few gruff sentences et voila, we had the original and official Green form plus vignette. Never did find out what he said but what made it worse, is that a week later I had a winning lotto ticket....70 francs to collect from the tabac, well look after the pennies !

Things work differently all over France, bring logic in to the equation and we would all end up bamboozled !!

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

I'll try to answer all the points made in one reply (and TRY to keep it brief).

When we first applied for a Petite Licence de Restauration, I asked at the Mairie, and was told to go down to the local café, which is where we got it. However that was 10 years ago, and it is perfectly possible that rules have changed since then.

I based my inclusion of what may or may not be sold/given at random times of the day upon what the customs lady told me, and that of course could well be proven ... err ... an idiosyncratic interpretation. But logically, if breakfast is NOT considered a meal, and a Petite Licence does NOT cover beverages sold/given outside mealtimes (sorry about the double negative), then a Petite Licence does not cover coffee etc for breakfast. To be "en règle" for breakfast, it has to be the "License à consommer sur place du premier catégorie". I am still waiting for the papers to arrive to be able to say exactly what is and what isn't included in it. You can rely on me keep you informed.

The Petite License covers drinks served WITH meals only.

I'd be the last to deny that in different areas, different officials will interpret the rules in different ways. "Vive la Différence" If you really want to have fun, try and get the Douanes to say one thing and the "Service des consommateurs et repression des fraudes", who seem to like to meddle in the way people deal with feeding the public, to say another, and then sit back and watch them squabble. Endless fun.

I'd also not be in the least surprised if very few customs officers have ever been asked for such licences by B&B owners. The "Douanes" are older than the Gendarmes, and are held in even lower esteem. I'd imagine that all right minded french B&B owners would have absolutely nothing to do with them.

In the meantime, carry on chaps and chapesses.

[Will]

You're quite right Coco in that it was definitely not the mairie that issued the licence in our case - though the douanes went to exactly the right one for us with no query or argument, despite being a bit surprised to be asked, and by a foreigner at that.

As we don't get involved in alchohol with meals I 'm not really bothered - but our petit licence is valid for categories 1 & 2 which, if they correspond to the categories mentioned by Ian, would seem to indicate that we could serve wine etc with dinner should we want to.

Officials are great fun, though aren't they Ian (having spent an inordinate amount of time on the phone this morning trying to get to the bottom of a lack of understanding between French and British bureaucrats about the validity of a certificate I have never been issued with, admittedly nothing to do with B&B)

[Miki]

The Petite License covers drinks served WITH meals only.

Ian,

So does the grande licence that we have, it simply allows us to sell a wider variety of alchohol as long as it taken as part of an evening meal. No licence is allowable for a table d'hôtes and especially a CdH from the Douanes (who incidenatlly send us the annual bill for 7,62€ ) to allow drinks to be sold to clients without a meal NOR to be taken out (Licence à Emporter). Both of those are different licences, none of which are allowed to B&B's.

This is what it says on the original and official Green recette principale des Douanes licence form.

Licence restaurant qui permet de vendre pour consommer sur place à l'occasion des repas uniquement à la nourriture des groupes suivant : Petite et Grande

The best one can appy for with TdH is quite simply Petite code (06) or Grande code (05) and these are purely for serving or selling alcoholic drinks with meals. This has been the case in both the 24 and the 35 depts where we have run similar establishments.

but our petit licence is valid for categories 1 & 2 which, if they correspond to the categories mentioned by Ian, would seem to indicate that we could serve wine etc with dinner should we want to.

Will,

Yes the petite licence is made up of two parts, part one allows the sale of non alcoholic drinks, thereby allowing breakfast drinks to be given (sold !). Part two allows fermented drinks to be sold, (or given) with evening meals.

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Miki,

You asked

So does the grande licence that we have, simply allow us to sell a wider variety of alchohol as long as it taken as part of an evening meal.

Yup, that's right. I phoned up again  today and asked.

The best one can appy for with TdH is quite simply Petite code (06) or Grande code (05) and these are purely for serving or selling alcoholic drinks with meals. This has been the case in both the 24 and the 35 depts where we have run similar establishments.

Will said

but our petit licence is valid for categories 1 & 2 which, if they correspond to the categories mentioned by Ian, would seem to indicate that we could serve wine etc with dinner should we want to.

You commented.

Yes the petite licence is made up of two parts, part one allows the sale of non alcoholic drinks, thereby allowing breakfast drinks to be given (sold !). Part two allows fermented drinks to be sold, (or given) with evening meals.

NO!!!! The petite license ONLY covers drinks with a meal. and doesn't allow us to sell drinks apart from meals. And given that breakfast isn't considered to be a meal, we need a licence which covers that. Will's categories 1 and 2 cover non alcoholic drinks and wine etc respectively. BUT being under the Petite licence, only apply to drinks served WITH meals.

This is the other licence I mentioned is called "License à consommer sur place du premier catégorie".

This is obtained from your local Mairie, and costs nothing, as I said, and is automatically granted. It has to be lodged with your local customs office, though I don't know whether you have to do it in person or can send it in.

The "premier catégorie" refers to the type of drink that may be sold. These are all non alcoholic drinks, not including  beer, cider etc. I specifically asked whether I could give alcoholic drinks such as a beer when my clients arrive, and she said that the license doesn't cover it. As you said on another thread, that would be a License a consommer .... deuxième catégorie" and they're very rare, she said.  So when I asked the obvious follow up, "so what do I do to be able to do so legally?" she said. "You can't." No ifs or buts. So that's it from the horse's mouth. As to what will happen to me when I continue to offer thirsty guests a beer on the house when they arrive, I don't know.

Hope that clarifies things. I'm sorry if Coco and others have been told differently but I really pressed the point, and the lady was quite categorical. However I'm not in the least surprised that there's confusion.

To summarise therefore.

To be legal serving a drink for breakfast, essential for CdH you need the "License à consommer sur place de 1er Catégorie". (get it at the Mairie, register with Customs)

To be legal serving wine etc (but not brandy) WITH a meal, only needed if you do Table d'Hôte, you need the Petite License de Restauration. (Get it at local customs correspondant - probably one of the local bars, ask at Mairie.)

 

[Miki]

Ian,

Miki; So does the grande licence that we have, simply allow us to sell a wider variety of alchohol as long as it taken as part of an evening meal.

Ian ; Yup, that's right. I phoned up again  today and asked.

I didn’t ask and it wasn’t a question, it was a statement of fact. Read it as “So does the grande licence” not as a Q but a statement

The best one can appy for with TdH is quite simply Petite code (06) or Grande code (05) and these are purely for serving or selling alcoholic drinks with meals. This has been the case in both the 24 and the 35 depts where we have run similar establishments.

Will said

but our petit licence is valid for categories 1 & 2 which, if they correspond to the categories mentioned by Ian, would seem to indicate that we could serve wine etc with dinner should we want to.

You commented.

Miki; Yes the petite licence is made up of two parts, part one allows the sale of non alcoholic drinks, thereby allowing breakfast drinks to be given (sold !). Part two allows fermented drinks to be sold, (or given) with evening meals.

Ian: NO!!!! The petite license ONLY covers drinks with a meal. and doesn't allow us to sell drinks apart from meals. And given that breakfast isn't considered to be a meal, we need a licence which covers that.

Sorry but what are you on about Ian ? You say,  NO!!!!!!!!! what does that say No about ? I have the exact statement on the back of a grande licence which explains it all in French and I posted  it on here. It categorically states that non alcoholic drinks can be  given (or sold) with breakfasts and can be also be used to give (sell) fermented drinks with evening meals. Please read it again, I know only too well that drinks cannot be sold without food, I have only posted that fact a hundred times on here in a few years !!

Breakfasts for the petite licence are covered under their statement principal repas et comme accessories a la nourriture and the petite licence carries YOUR quoted 1er & also the 2eme category within its legal limits

I really feel we are going on with a play on words, for many many years the petite licence has been the much used licence for doing B&B and TdH.  The licence you mention in the first line in the next red paragraph is qouted as being the first category within the petite licence,( which as I have previously stated gives the person the 2nd category as well) The only thing that your licence is used for, is purely for CdH only and is just for the legality of serving drinks with breakfasts, and that is maybe where the confusion lies ?

When I quote sold, the French will never believe you give ANYTHING away free, so I stated given (sold !) meaning it is given in the cost of B&B and is simply put in the equation of the total price.

I have never stated that petite licence cannot be used just to sell drinks without meals, so why have you put ONLY in capitals when you state that fact,  that I have always and constantly quoted the same facts on here ?

Ian; This is the other licence I mentioned is called "License à consommer sur place du premier catégorie".

Please read my previous quote about this licence category

This is obtained from your local Mairie, and costs nothing, as I said, and is automatically granted. It has to be lodged with your local customs office, though I don't know whether you have to do it in person or can send it in.

The "premier catégorie" refers to the type of drink that may be sold. These are all non alcoholic drinks, not including  beer, cider etc. I specifically asked whether I could give alcoholic drinks such as a beer when my clients arrive, and she said that the license doesn't cover it. As you said on another thread, that would be a License a consommer .... deuxième catéforie" and they're very rare, she said.  So when I asked the obvious follow up, "so what do I do to be able to do so legally?" she said. "You can't." No ifs or buts. So that's it from the horse's mouth. As to what will happen to me when I continue to offer thirsty guests a beer on the house when they arrive, I don't know.

Rare as chocolate teapots in fact, I will say it again, I have NEVER known any CdH get a licence to sell drinks without meals and as far as my Douane records show, there is no such licence to be able to do so. Goodness me, the local bars would be up in arms if B&B's were allowed to serve drinks at all times of the day !!

Apologies but, blige me, it is like indigestion Ian, how many times does it need to be repeated.  I have stated until I am blue in the face. I know one cannot serve drinks without food and have said so more times than I care to remember

Ian; Hope that clarifies things.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Miki,

I'm not going to make any comments which might add fuel to your irritation, until I go and see our customs people on Tuesday.

[Miki]

Ian,

It is not so much irritation, as much as, why such a big fuss about this licence or that licence. We have all gone through this more times than Pigott had winners !! Well not that many I guess.....

You have been in B&B for a long time, so have I. Why are you bothering to go to the douanes after such a long time ? You have been serving dinners and breakfasts for ages, have you had trouble, that now means you need to go and see the Douanes ? You did say that local French would never go to the douanes.

I am curious as to why you really feel you need to go there. I know what we are doing and the licence we have is 100% legal and I am sure that, so do all the other people on here feel they have done it correctly, so who is it for and why ?

I am not being stroppy on this but I cannot get my head around why this has all been dragged up and why ?

Bon weekend a tous

 

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi again,

We're back today from out trip to the "Douanes & Droits Indirects" in Brive. And we're now the proud holders of a License d'un Débit de Boissons à consommer sur place de 1er Catégorie. Jacquie and I had a longish conversation with the lady who handles all matter of "Droits Indirects".

The key facts for people who run a B&B , as she told us, are the following.

1 In order to sell (or give away to paying customers) ANY drink of whatever nature, you must have the appropriate licence.

2. There are three different types of licence.
a) To allow drinks to be consumed on the premises
b) to allow drinks to be consumed on the premises with a meal
c) to allow drinks to be taken away (c.f. british off licence)

The licence which allows drinks to be sold to be drunk on the premises outside mealtimes comes in 4 categories.
1. Soft drinks, coffee etc as defined in art L.3331-1-1 CSP
2. Alcoholic drinks as defined in art L.3331-1-2 CSP
3. Slightly stronger drinks L.3331-1-3 CSP
4 Spirits etc L.3331-1-4 CSP

The License Restaurant which only covers drinks served with a meal comes in two categories

Petite Licence Restaurant covering non alcoholic drinks and wines and beer only when consumed with a meal (drinks of groups 1 & 2)
Grande Licence Restaurant covering all types of drink when served with a meal.

The licence covering off sales also comes in two categories, Petite & Grande, but does not concern us.

The KEY piece of information is that breakfast - so she said - is NOT considered a meal for the purposes of these Licences. So therefore to serve (soft) drinks at breakfast, you must be in possession of the Licence d'un Débit de Boissons à consommer sur place de 1er Categorie.  I phoned and asked my local Gites de France office, and our "technicien" confirmed this.

Therefore, if you do not serve evening meals, you only need this one licence.
However, to serve drinks with lunch or an evening meal, you require a Licence Restaurant (petite or grande, depending upon what you want to serve).

Where do you get these?

For breakfasts and soft drinks served throughout the day.

You go to your Mairie and ask there for a "Récépissé de Déclaration d'un Débit de Boissons à consommer sur place de Premier Catégorie". If they haven't heard of it, or got one, they are obtianable from the Prefecture. Once furnished with this, you fill it in getting it signed and stamped at the Mairie, and take one copy to your local customs office, who will fill out the licence itself - cerfa 3366 R17-DEBO and hand you a copy. You _should_ in addition buy a little plaque that is issued by your department, and which shows that you have your licence. This should be displayed in your establishment. The Mairie will send off all the relevant documentation to the Prefecture.

For dinners.

You either go to your Customs office directly, or to a sub bureau, which can be a local café, and ask for the appropriate licence. This will either be a Grande Licence Restaurant or a Petite Licence Restaurant. They will fill it in and give you a copy.

I don't know whether a Grande Licence must be paid for, but a Petite Licence is free, as is the "on the premises" 1st Category licence.

From all we can discover, there is almost universal ignorance about these rules. Most organisations seem to think that the Petite Licence Restaurant covers the lot. Given that it isn't the hardest thing in the world to organise, it seems sensible to cover our backs and get the 1st Category "on the premises" licence too.

As to WHY did I raise this matter? Because I heard that there might be a doubt as to whether the Licence Restaurant covered coffee for breakfast, checked up, and found that it didn't. That's all. I've asked Philippe to get Gites de France headquarters to take the matter up with Douanes at the top level, because we really ought to know what is right and what is wrong, authoritively.

[Miki]

Ian said "I don't know whether a Grande Licence must be paid for, but a Petite Licence is free, as is the "on the premises" 1st Category licence."

We pay 8 euros per year for the grande licence.

"From all we can discover, there is almost universal ignorance about these rules. Most organisations seem to think that the Petite Licence Restaurant covers the lot. Given that it isn't the hardest thing in the world to organise, it seems sensible to cover our backs and get the 1st Category "on the premises" licence too"

Yes, you have been in the business a long time and you were ignorant of the rules, so others are sure to be confused. We have had one for several years and in fact inherited it then renewed it but by the second or third year, we visited the douanes and they categorically stated that the grande licence alone would suffice. The truth is of course, that they couldn't honestly give a monkeys about who is, or who isn't "selling, or giving away" coffee or tea with the breakfasts just as long as one is registered and has a licence in one form or another. Giving it away free, shows you just how much credence is put on the licence.

Ian said " As to WHY did I raise this matter? Because I heard that there might be a doubt as to whether the Licence Restaurant covered coffee for breakfast, checked up, and found that it didn't. That's all......"

So how many times has the Mairie, the douanes or gendarmes arrived to summons you on this most awful of crimes ? Come on Ian, the original point, was that you would not be allowed to sell alcohol from a chambres d'hôtes throughout the day, soft drinks was not in the equation.

Ian said "The licence covering off sales also comes in two categories, Petite & Grande, but does not concern us."

Funny enough the local farm sell its cider to take away but I have never asked them how they go about doing so legally but I think that over they years, B&B on wine, cider producers apply and have a licence to sell their products as "off sales".

To quote from GDF under "Les Boisons",

"Tout service de boisson alcoholisées en dehors des repas est Interdit" So what the douanes might say is of no concern if you are a member of GDF then ?

And on speaking to our local rep, she stated that the petite et grande licence states "......à l'occasion de repas principaux et comme accesories à la NOURRITURE this wording she says, she has always thought, meant for breakfasts included. And so do other GDF personnel so you may have opened up a can of worms..................

I keep thinking of your statement, that a French person would NEVER visit the douanes and one you certainly appeared to be in agreement with, so.......

By the way Ian, ALL the facts you mentioned about drinks and licences, you could have read in your Charte des Chambre D'hôtes with GDF, have you not got yours any more ?

[Quillan]

[quote]Ian said "I don't know whether a Grande Licence must be paid for, but a Petite Licence is free, as is the "on the premises" 1st Category licence."We pay 8 euros per year for the grande licence."From a...[/quote]

Miki - Sorry, it must be an area thing because we got a Grand one and it was free (from Limoux). I know it's a pretentious but it's in a frame hanging on the wall in front of me and it's definately Grand. Other than that the explination we were given by the Duanes and what we are allowed to do is exactly as you say.

[Miki]

[quote]Miki - Sorry, it must be an area thing because we got a Grand one and it was free (from Limoux). I know it's a pretentious but it's in a frame hanging on the wall in front of me and it's definately Gr...[/quote]

It is definitely an area thing Chris.

We have friends in Provence who do not pay but friends who pay in the Doo Don. We pay here for our grande licence but at 8 euros as against nothing, I don't think Tina and I will be marching on the Douanes office at Fort du Naye in Saint Malo for a rebate !!

It is actually based, (according to the splurge on the back of the renewal forms)on the amount of persons living in your commune. So we are stuck with a fair size commune and so they charge us 8 euros, tant pis eh !

The way to tell if one has a grande licence, is to look in the top area of your form and it should say Code and it would have 05 in the boxes.

[Will]

Surely the best course of action is to follow the advice given by the officials for your particular area? We have an official piece of paper, obtained from our Douanes et Droits Indirectes, and have declared the income to the Impots, and determined that because CdH is far from being our main source of income we don't have to separately register a business or pay additional cotisations. Our paperwork is a petit licence, no charge, because that's what we were told we needed - I'm not enough of a cheapskate to try and avoid paying a minimal fee for another licence in the hope that we'd get away with it. We don't serve evening meals, or alcohol.

Or am I being naive, and we're likely to end up in jail if the gendarmes pay a visit?

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Miki and Will,

I should first of all excuse myself about misleading you over the sale of alcoholic beverages apart from meals. I entirely misread the situation at first. When I checked up on the 1 er category drinks, I found that they were only soft drinks. You're quite right that it would be impossible to get a 2nd Category licence. I asked, because I want to be legal in offering my arriving guests a can of beer on the house. I can't, so that's that.

You ask "why bother?" Because it costs nothing and it's the law. For the same reason as I'm the only person who sees that the fiche voyageurs is filled in by non french visitors and return them to the Gendarmes. For the same reason as I declare every penny I receive in income.

Will. You ask if you're likely to end up in jail. No, of course not. However, the Douanes have even more powers than the Gendarmes, and it seems so little trouble to get it right and be SURE they can't make a nuisance of themselves. I agree that it makes sense to follow the advice given in the area, but what would it cost to ask them "we've heard that breakfast may not be considered a meal for the purposes of a licence, can you check up on this for us please, to see if we need a different licence"?

Miki, you make the point that all the points I've made are in the GdF charte and ask whether I read it. I have to admit the last time I read mine was to froth at the mouth over the clause restricting  advertising elsewhere without their express written permission.

However, I've just looked through the document called "La règlementation dans le secteur paracommercial" from the Ministère de this that and Tourisme. Direction de Tourisme "La participation aux Activités Touristiques. All they say is that "The sale of drinks during a meal demands a licence restauration (petite ou grande)". No mention of wht can happen outside meals or whether breakfast is considered to be a meal. There's also quite a lot covering what is and what isn't, and what you can and cannot do and I've posted that elsewhere.

And now I've just looked through the "Charte de Qualité Gites de France" Sept 2001, and there's no mention of any licence there either. Are you thinking of another Charte?

I accept that this sort of thing is one where quite legitimate differences of opinion as to what one should do about the rules, but it seems to me quite reasonable to want to know just what the rules ARE that we're flouting.

[Miki]

Ian said ".....I should first of all excuse myself about misleading you over the sale of alcoholic beverages apart from meals. I entirely misread the situation at first. When I checked up on the 1 er category drinks, I found that they were only soft drinks. You're quite right that it would be impossible to get a 2nd Category licence. I asked, because I want to be legal in offering my arriving guests a can of beer on the house. I can't, so that's that....."

Don't worry Ian but I thought it was well known that one cannot offer drinks without meals in CDH, so I was not misled at all but you were right to reiterate it again.

Ian said ..."You ask "why bother?" Because it costs nothing and it's the law. For the same reason as I'm the only person who sees that the fiche voyageurs is filled in by non french visitors and return them to the Gendarmes. For the same reason as I declare every penny I receive in income....."

It is called a "controle" by the gendarmes and we get the clients to fill in their details in a book we have for the purpose as often as we can and, it should include all persons, including the French, although if we have their details through their booking we never ask them. For the sake of others, the gendarmes can call on you and ask to see your visitors book at any time. We have had one controle in the last 12 years and that was the 3rd day we were in the Dordogne ! !

Ian said "....And now I've just looked through the "Charte de Qualité Gites de France" Sept 2001, and there's no mention of any licence there either. Are you thinking of another Charte?..."

Yes, when we joined at this end of the country, we were given a "Dossier Technique" and on it was written "Charte des Chambres D'Hôtes" Inside are many rules and regulations, a rather large section is given over to the licencing laws for table d'hôtes. The dossier really does go into all the details of running a CDH through GDF and leaves no stone unturned. The final pages are the classement part, that we all had to go through to get our gradings. So in effect it takes you from Day one and then right through every stage and regulations that you need to know about.

Yes, it is reasonable to find out what one needs to know to run legally but as has been shown here, most of us have licences which we have all been assured by the Douanes (and in my case, also by our local bossy boots rep) are sufficient to run our businesses. If not, then at a rough count 99.9% of B&B's I know have got it all wrong and I would suspect that would also be your estimate for your area ?

[Quillan]

Miki - It has the number 17 hand written on a box. The Declsaration says - ouverture d une grande licence restaurant. The ‘A Déclare’ says -  un loir excèdes une grande licence restaurant a Belvianes et Cavirac a comptes de le jour.

 

I don’t know if that the correct spelling as his hand writing is worse than a doctors.

[Miki]

[quote]Miki - It has the number 17 hand written on a box. The Declsaration says - ouverture d une grande licence restaurant. The ‘A Déclare’ says - un loir excèdes une grande licence restaurant a Belvia...[/quote]

Chris,

Got me with that one !

It is purely a regional thing, I am sure. Number 17 is not even a code for any licence that I can see but 07 is is a grande licence A Emporter.

Seems good enough to me that you have a grande licence whatever number may be on it !!

Is it in its normal original colour of green ? and an annual white renewal form arrives every year or ? Again, I suspect it's only me that gets their annual renewal form like that?

[Quillan]

[quote]Chris,Got me with that one !It is purely a regional thing, I am sure. Number 17 is not even a code for any licence that I can see but 07 is is a grande licence A Emporter.Seems good enough to me that...[/quote]

It's green and is stamped at the bottom by the Duanes and when I asked it does not have to be renewed.

Basically we were told to go to the Tobac because we needed a licence to serve tea, coffee etc with breakfast. We went to the Tobac and the guy just looked at us. Fortunatly we use the Tobac as we both smoke so the guy phoned round and told us we needed to go to the Duanes in Limoux.

We went the same day we went to visit the tax man and took our interpreter with us who laughed when we told him we needed a licence for breakfast. Basically the coversation went like this.

Do we need a licence for breakfast and if so how much is it? - Yes and  i'ts free.

If we give wine away with a evening meal do we need a licence and if so how much? - Yes you do and it's free.

If we want to sell booze with the meal do we need a licence and how much is it? - Yes you do and it's free. OK we will take one.

The guy made it quite clear that we can only give or sell wine with a proper 3 course meal. A sandwich, packet of crisps and a coffee is not a proper meal he said.

I have to say that I think the charging is probably a local thing but I can't see that the actual licence differs from one area to another. It would be like people in Kent paying more VAT than people in Bristol, well not quite but you know what I mean.

[mascamps.com]

The license to sell "sur place" also lets you sell to the same level of drink on a takeaway basis, at least for our license 3 (and for a license 2; not sure about the others). I assume that covers our (very small scale) wine shop, but going by the earlier heated debates, perhaps it's not as simple as that?

What's a "fiche visiteurs"? Is that the equivalent of a hotel checkin book (which I've not come across in years)? Where do you get them? Perhaps more appropriately in this hi-tech age, what information do you need to hold? Ian: you need to treat Europeans the same way as you do the French or you'll get some awkward sod like me staying someday and complaining that you're breaking European law

On the logistics of selling wine/spirits or whatever level of drink that your license allows, what happens if a guest orders a bottle of plonk, takes the entree and decides that he's full up and doesn't want the main course or dessert? Does that mean that you've just broken the law by serving drink without a "proper" meal? Is the intention to take a 3 course meal enough to cover you?

Can you take these licenses with you if you move somewhere else? OK, not a big deal for the free ones but I notionally paid 10.000€ for mine. If so, is it just within the Department, or is the whole of France your oyster?

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Arnold,

A licence 3 is very much an auberge,/small hotel/ largeish camping type licence, allowing you to sell drinks to drink in, or out, with or without meals but, with restrictions on certain strength alcoholic beverages.

You can use any book you want, that is suitable for the job, for the fiche visiteurs, if you so wish. They should offer you their identity card and from there you can take their name, address and nationality plus their card number, we also often take their car registration number.

Your licence three is far ahead of the petite and grande licence that many of us have. Licence three is very much for professional use. If the chap wants to simply drink his wine without food, no problems.

No you cannot take the licence with you under normal circumstances, if you did, you would severely reduce your chances of selling the Auberge. The Auberge needs a licence or it is nothing in reality. Many people closing down bars etc, will try to sell their licence IV (the top licence for bars and rstaurants)if they are not getting any buyers for their bar. This licence can be "exported" even to another village but certainly not too far away. There are restrictions on where it may be sold on to and legally allowed to be used and too long winded for this thread.

The "notionally paid" 10,000€ tells you just how much caché is put on having that licence 3 attached to your inn.