French run Cd'Hs?

[zeb]

I've been following the Perfect Hosts thread with interest, as I'm sure many LFers have. I don't ever want to run one (unless I could afford to pay staff!) and I have only stayed in a couple in the UK, and a super Brit run CDH near Lourdes. (We normally rent gites (through GdF) or stay in hotels when touring France).

However, I just wondered how many of you have actually stayed in a French run CDH? Did you eat with the owners? Was it any different (apart from the language of course) to staying in a British owned CDH? Was it GdF and did they "stick to the rules" (regional dishes and all that)?

Sorry - didn't want to hijack the other thread. Just interested.

[Coco]

Hi Zeb

We stayed in several when we were house-hunting; mainly because we knew we would eventually want to run a B&B so it was a good way of doing a bit of market research whilst we were searching for the right property.  We only stayed in one truly awful one, several average, several pretty good and one so good that she can only possibly be doing it as a hobby - she offers so much she can't possibly make ANY money out of it!!

The bad one was near Auxerre in Burgundy and although the building and location were wonderful it just shows how important the hosts are because we would never go back or recommend it, even though it was a lovely place, with a totally underused pool.  The husband never appeared at all and the wife told us dinner would be at 7.30 promptly.  We rushed back from our touring round, only to find that there were 14 of us standing around in the dining room waiting for our missing hostess.  She appeared at 8pm to dish up a huge portion of quiche to each person (no apero offered).  She quickly whisked this away and after hearing the microwave ping we were served up a pretty dried out beef bourgignon, VERY swiftly followed by cheese and equally swiftly followed by some non-descript tart.  The whole meal was over by 9.15pm and she didn't eat with us or make any introductions (AND it was a GDF!!!)  We were in the middle of the country so there was nothing else to do.  Luckily we all managed to introduce ourselves and communicate, we being the only Brits, 4 Germans, who spoke only a smattering of English and French, 4 from Luxembourg, 2 French and 2 Italians.  The Germans decided to go on a raid to the kitchen to find some more wine, which they said we all deserved, due to the extremely poor service we received.  Once they had persuaded everyone that it was compensation, not theft, we all got stuck in and enjoyed our evening after all - no thanks to our hostess!  The following morning, again, having told us that breakfast would be at 8am, she arrived, still in dressing gown, at 8.45am - the Germans were NOT amused!!!

We have stayed in a couple of other French run CDH+GDF which have been very pleasant locations and excellent food, but again, we were not joined by either our host or hostess on any occasion.

The year before last we stayed in a GDF in the Loire which is also in Alistair Sawday, which although a bit run-down and tatty, had excellent hosts, who insisted on organising a game of boules before dinner, were extremely entertaining and also served wonderful food.  By the end of the evening everyone felt as though they had known each other for ever!  However, the hostess (who was a GDF inspector) had decided that she was not going to renew her membership because they are now becoming so prescriptive in their rules and regs as to being TOO restrictive in the way one can run an establishment.

Then there is the other extreme, as I said above, where we could have arrived in the clothes we stood up in and absolutely every toiletry and bathroom/bedroom accessory we could want was provided free of charge.  Breakfast was huge and after absolutely stuffing ourselves we felt we hadn't even made a dent in it.  Her evening meals were also excellent and the only fault I found with the place was yet again, the hosts didn't eat with us.  I find that you then tend to rush the meal because you feel they are waiting for you to finish, which means we end up having coffee by 9.45pm at the very latest, if we really stretch it out, and then don't know what to do with ourselves, so end up going to bed about 3 hours earlier than we would normally do and finishing our books in one night!!!  But I really don't know how this lady makes any money at all, I think it is more of a hobby and she does it for something to do rather than to earn a living.

We try to take the best from each and follow their example in our own place.  I hope it works. 

[Coco]

Now, can I hijack your thread?  You say that you stay in hotels when touring France.  Is this because you prefer the anonymity?  Being closer into town? Because you think they're cheaper?

We were debating this last night with some friends who are considering turning their house into a B&B but wondered why people would choose to stay with them in their home, rather than a hotel with all its amenities.

 

[mascamps.com]

For me, the reason is really simple - it's easier to book a hotel.

The greatest weakness that CdH/B&Bs have is that they are very rarely possible to book online with a "book it now" facility. It's almost always an e-mail enquiry type booking. That means that it's difficult (usually impossible) to book a series of B&Bs if you're going on a touring holiday for instance (hence my earlier queries re ourinns.org if people would be interested in having a "book now" facility on offer).

In general I find that a CdH will offer a better quality of room at any given price. OK, the hotel will probably have a TV whereas the CdH probably won't but that's not a hard and fast rule. In France in particular the hotel will charge for a whole bunch of things that the CdH doesn't, notably the parking. You also get some pretty naff breakfasts in hotels here which (one hopes) is a much less common occurrence in CdHs.

A TdH vs restaurant is a different ball game but then people don't always eat in the hotel's restaurant so I think the most important comparison is between the quality of the rooms.

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Zeb asked

However, I just wondered how many of you have actually stayed in a French run CDH? Did you eat with the owners? Was it any different (apart from the language of course) to staying in a British owned CDH? Was it GdF and did they "stick to the rules" (regional dishes and all that)?

Sorry - didn't want to hijack the other thread. Just interested.

Once we had decided to start a CdH, we went on something of a tour round the SW of France, to see what sort of thing was involved in running them. So we stayed with quite a few on that trip. Since I've been in the "biz", I've stayed in others, in Alsace, in Burgundy (several) in Savoy, in Languedoc and in the Bergerac region. I've always stayed in French run ones (not particularly deliberately, but mainly on the grounds of price), so I can't make the comparison with British run ones.

Our first trip was designed to find out what we wanted to copy and what we wanted to avoid. In one of these, we were served breakfast in a dining room by the daughter of the house (they didn't do dinner) and sat in solitary splendour on our own there. Hated it, we might just as well have been in an hotel. In another, we did eat dinner in the kitchen with the family cooking at the stove, while we ate alone. That was better, but I felt very much as if we were being "waited on". All the others served what could best be called "good home food", and ate with us.

In Bergerac, for example, (we go regularly to the same place) Madame serves a soup, some kind of terrine - may be duck rillettes, may be foie gras- then confit, spuds, salad, cheese and a tart of some kind, often with plums, as they make prunes.

In the Languedoc, in Clermont l'Hérault, (I don't remember the whole meal) we sat at a huge long table, with room for about 20, and the owner grilled lamb chops on trhe open fire. The family, friends and even the local drunken maçon, who was supposed to be working on the place were all there! A great amiable shambles. We loved it!

However I must correct one misconception, although GdF talk about local food, this is NOT part of the rules, it is more designed to try to explain to people who don't know the system more or less the STYLE of food to expect. As if I were saying to someone going to B&Bs in the UK, "if your hosts serve an evening meal, expect to sit down with the family for a laid back supper." So that people don't expect a formal dinner party. D'you see what I mean?

So for GdF, they're trying to say "don't expect haute cuisine, international style cooking, expect to have local dishes - the sort of peasant food the (traditional) GdF owners would do for themselves.

[mascamps.com]

That's a much better way of putting the issue of the food Ian.

I, and I believe others, had the impression that having to provide regional dishes was part of the GdF rules. On the other hand, if it were worded more along the lines of saying that "for a TdH meal, home cooked food will be provided" we would have been OK about that "rule". I think perhaps the problem is that GdF just assume that all of their owners are French and from the regions that their CdH is in and they've therefore worded things to say "regional cooking" rather than "home cooking" which, of course, is quite a different thing and especially so if the hosts don't come from France.

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Sorry but no, no, no, it has never to my mind, been implied that it is obligatory for any GDF member to have to dish up only local dishes.

The issue was simply that GDF tell people what they can expect when they book at a TDH with GDF.

There is no regulation on this matter, there could never be so. What some members in GDF get a little up in the air about, is the way GDF "tell it" in their regional and national guide books. No one should ever think it is obligatory to offer anything BUT regional food, for members here that would mean cooking on an open fire, copious amounts of rough cider and pork or possibly chicken. Mind you, guests wouldn't mind it if we served up fruits de mer at the price we do evening meals for !!

I said before that members of GDF can be put under uneccessary pressure by all the "spin" that GDF put out as to what guests can expect to receive for breakfast or dinner.

[Cerise]

I probably shouldn't say this - but gloomy is the word that comes to mind for some of the C d'H that I have stayed in.  Always clean, breakfast varying from mediocre to brilliant, hosts ditto, but accommodation often not very bright or cheery.  I think I have a British perspective on things and do like bright, well lit and cheerful.  Have to say though - usually cheap and good value for money.

By coincidence i.e. we didn't look for them, most of the places have been G de F and looking at the rules and regs most of the places I've stayed didn't comply (not complaining simply remarking).

Over last 2 years we have not got out much but next week we are taking 2 days off and going to stay in French C d'H in Pyrenées Atlantique and eat in - something we haven't done before.  Will be interested to see what it is like and how we compare.  I think anyone staying with us would know instantly from decor that we are English - but don't apologies for that as I AM English (OH being Indian perhaps I should sprinkle a few elephants around ) and it is my home.  French guests seem to like it and as others have said remark that we are much more flexible than some of the French run places around.  We cater for any nationality, but don't pretend we are French.

Interestingly, the majority of C d'H here seem to be run by 'foreigners' - and French friends who do have C d'H are thinking of converting to gites as they find it 'too hard work'.

Maggi

 

 

 

[Miki]

Cerise said ".....Interestingly, the majority of C d'H here seem to be run by 'foreigners' - and French friends who do have C d'H are thinking of converting to gites as they find it 'too hard work'."

Cerise do you mean when you say, "here", as meaning, around your part of France ?

Because around here, the majority of people with one or another of the French CDH organisations are almost totally French. Most Brits around us are not with any organisation at all and simply rely on a few little freebie sites and the odd paying internet site to gain clients, some do not even have a sign outside (I wonder why !!)

If you look in the GDF "2005 Les Guides Nationaux" there are a total of nearly 1900 pages and I can't be sure but my thoughts and a quick browse through the guide are that in all those pages with CDH, it appears that less than 1% maybe towards 2% are British owned. Maybe Ian will have the figures nationwide?

So I guess it can be taken that many Brits simply do not feel confident enough to join GDF or any other CDH membership for one reason or another and prefer to simply take English speakers only or at least advertise only on the "British" Internet sites.

Some we know will take French but prefer not to, due to the language and some also the "cultural diffrence". Oh yes, some think the French are just not British and cannot fathom them out, well I can't either most of the time, every time I think I have, then just like Golf, one realises you ain't quite fathomed it (them) out !!

I think most of us struggled (perhaps Ian didn't !)in the beginning but obviously the only way to improve is to throw yourself in at the deep end.

And there you have catch 22, you will not be accepted by GDF (well not around here, nor Normany as Coco has said)until you can speak it quite well, not fluently otherwise Tina and I would not have been accepted but we more than get by, if not always grammatically correct but since we have been with GDF of course with more than 70% French guests, we are bound to have improved and so would any of you who are doubting joning GDF due to degree of French now spoken.

So OK, one has to start without GDF at first but my guess is that after a while of doing B&B in France and with French guests understanding you very well, then unless the GDF person who visits wants to get everything grammatically correct, you will be accepted I would have thought.

That went on a bit longer than I meant to, sorry !

[mascamps.com]

It's not just the French that think it's too hard work. An English family who bought a 6 CdH 5 gite place have closed down the CdH side of things recently.

Re the signs: whilst there may be some who don't put them up to keep a low profile, there are a lot who don't simply because they are essentially reservation only places and don't need them. I'm in two minds about having signs myself as we have, to date, had very few people just drop in. On the other hand, the local French-owned place which is our closest equivalent has loads of signs and was empty over Easter and two entire weeks last August!

There are several reasons why brits, in general, don't advertise in GdF. The most common reason I've heard is simply that the price in GdF is around 30% less than the equivalent British publication. Much as I personally think GdF is too rules-oriented I have taken Miki's point that they fill the place and have actively encouraged people to join up but to no avail as they have consistently pointed out the 30% price difference hence their preference for the UK market.

The number two position is a tie between "we don't speak (enough) French", "we aren't registered" (I am wearing them down on this) and "it's too expensive" (usually these people will have been using the internet sites).

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Arnold said "...Re the signs: whilst there may be some who don't put them up to keep a low profile, there are a lot who don't simply because they are essentially reservation only places and don't need them. I'm in two minds about having signs myself as we have, to date, had very few people just drop in. On the other hand, the local French-owned place which is our closest equivalent has loads of signs and was empty over Easter and two entire weeks last August!"

Arnold are you 'aving me on !!

I said sign OUTSIDE !! Not signs on the road !

By not having a sign outside and with many B&B's not having numbers on their doors etc, it is only etiquette surely, to at least give the prospective clients a clue to where you might actually be and the point was, why don't they at least have a sign outside ???

You not having them is to my mind, possible poor business. Have you ever thought that you get few passers by, as no one (apart possibly from those who live nearby) even knows you exist? All those signs you see on motorways and main roads do work you know, that's why they are there but I have to say, it is mainly for the larger type hotels but we often see signs for Auberges and B&B's on our journeys on the main and "side" roads.

We have 6 (3 in each dept, as I have said before) partly to help people find us, it doesn't mater how clearly and precise we write our directions, some people will always go adrift and swear it was our directions that were wrong ! 98 clients make it and 2 get lost, reading directions badly comes to mind !and for any possibilty of passers by, it doesn't take that many extra clients who found you purely because of your signs, to recoup the cost of them.

You can't simply judge it on saying well the place up the road was empty and it had signs up, that's like saying the signs said "sod off don't stay at this hotel" signs may only be a small part of any business (mind you ask McDo's and the supermarkets, to give just 2 examples, what a simple advert can do for their businesses) but small business or not, each person that finds you through a sign is one more gained.

Not everyone will gain by signs but none should lose by them Arnold !

[mascamps.com]

Indeed you did say about having a sign outside.

We do have signs ourselves both on the road and at the place. In fact we have an absolutely massive "auberge" sign among our collection. We are also right on the roadside. Yet, we still got very few dropins over the last year although, to be fair, I gather that nobody else got them either around here so perhaps it was just an unusual year.

Our directions are incredibly simple but people just drive straight past us now and again as a consequence of our address: "66460 Maury" implies that we're in Maury but we're as far from it as you can be and not be in the next village. What happens in practice for us is that people don't start looking for our signs 'til they get to Maury. Thanks to the combination of ourselves and the winery next door we have a massive number of signs pointing our direction and we even have proper road signs too as we are a "place" on the map.

I do agree with the point that signs potentially pay for themselves relatively quickly and indeed we are presently looking into putting up a few more signs. We've even got to the point of pricing around.

As far as the place round the corner goes, we think that historically they were very dependent on the previous owner of this place passing people on to them which now doesn't happen 'til there are a lot more rooms full and also we open longer hours so pick up some people who would previously have went to them. In practice, we've only passed on one person to them so far, albeit in a bad year for tourism way down here.

Arnold

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Arnold said:-

That's a much better way of putting the issue of the food Ian.

And as you'll have seen from Miki's reply is much closer to what GdF are really trying to say.

about that "rule". I think perhaps the problem is that GdF just assume that all of their owners are French

Not even as conscious as that I guess. What they say comes from who they are - 60% or more are farmers and it is their thinking that permeates GdF still. So For them "home cooking" IS going to be regional cooking, because that's just about all they know. While the quality of the food in the plate in the average french farmer's house is wonderful, usually, it is quite extraordinarily limited, in my experience. They'll cook perhaps 30 or 40 dishes all told, superbly well. Maybe less.

So someone travelling to the Bergerac region is going to get food from there, because the archetypical GdF owner there is a Bergeracois farmer, possibly a vigneron in a small way. He'll have some plum trees to supplement his wine making, he'll probably fatten some ducks, he'll grow vegetables and he'll have farmyard animals, some chickens, rabbits and so on . In the old days he would have fattened a couple of pigs, so he'll still know how to cook them.

And his food will be based on that. Don't ask him how to cook lamb, they don't have any. Beef ? Not much. And so on. So GdF instead of trying to explain this, simpy say "expect regional food", because that says it all - both to their archetypical owner and to their archetypical client. I'd be prepared to bet that the people who wrote that would have had NO idea of the agonising the phrase could have caused, and in fact would be almost entirely unsympathetic too. (Up to us to understand!).

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Miki,

You said

Most Brits around us are not with any organisation at all and simply rely on a few little freebie sites and the odd paying internet site to gain clients, some do not even have a sign outside (I wonder why !!)

That's less true here, though this could be partly because of our relatively high profile here and the success we've had with GdF.

Maybe Ian will have the figures nationwide?

No idea, sorry.

So I guess it can be taken that many Brits simply do not feel confident enough to join GDF or any other CDH membership for one reason or another and prefer to simply take English speakers only or at least advertise only on the "British" Internet sites.

This almost certainly due to the enormously larger number of Brits that you have in your area. This makes the viability possible for them. Here, I only know of two Brits who cater mainly to other Brits, and they are in fairly big British organisations. We've more who ARE in as there would be NO way there's enough business from just Brit tourists.

I think most of us struggled (perhaps Ian didn't !)in the beginning but obviously the only way to improve is to throw yourself in at the deep end.

Actually, no we didn't. As I've said elsewhere, we're very very lucky in that Jacquie being half french, and a retired French teacher, speaks the language fluently. I simply talk too much, so whether it's in French or English, I manage to get by! But the nett result was that we went to see the then director of GdF, asked him if there was any reason why we shouldn't run a B&B here, and when he said "carry on" we asked him to come to give advice. We took most of it, but planned the refurbishment of the house with the intention that we should be as flexible as possible for possible usage. We then applied for grants, got them without too much trouble, spent a year 12 hours a day doing the place up, and then called GdF to inspect once half way through and then again when we were finished. But the flexibility of use (cooking facilities) and my foibles (oversized pipes and top class thermostatic showers) meant that we got good marks in the inspection and we never really looked back. It's called "the luck of the devil" and I have it in no trumps.

 

[mascamps.com]

Round here it doesn't seem to be so much that we get brit owned places catering exclusively for the brits but that, from what I've seen, it's the people who've moved over here relatively recently who cater largely for the brits. I'd say that a fairly natural thing to happen as it will clearly be easier for them to do their initial marketing in english.

What I would find peculiar is if someone was here for a number of years had continued to cater exclusively for the brits unless it was something specific that they were doing which just wasn't appropriate for the French eg specialising in French language classes. We're about to start running those ourselves and obviously it's pointless to have the advert for them in French.

I suspect that they've used the phrase "regional cooking" way back to reinforce the point that someone coming from Paris can't expect Parisien cooking in Perpignan and vice versa. If that particular phrase was there 50 years back then it would date from a time when that difference in cooking style wasn't so obvious as it is to us now. Using the phrase "home cooking" then wouldn't have said anything about the different types of food that could be expected in the different region.

 

Arnold