Seasonal pricing or not?

[mascamps.com]

I've noticed in the course of adding folk to ourinns that there seem to be two schools of thought re seasonal pricing. Any thoughts on the wisdom or otherwise of seasonal pricing?

My thinking is that if you don't use seasonal pricing then effectively you're effectively either using low season prices in the summer (hence dropping your income in a peak time) or using high season prices in the low season (hence dropping your off season occupancy), depending on  how you look at it.

Of course, once you decide to use seasonal pricing, you're then into deciding the dates of the seasons that you use. We thought about this and figured that the IBIS people obviously spend serious cash working out the dates so we just adopted their seasons.

And of course, how much do you vary the prices between the low, mid and high seasons? Again, as the IBIS fork out big money on researching this we just track their prices ie if they drop 5€ going from high to low season, so do we (our prices aren't the same as theirs - just the relationship between our seasonal prices).

Any thoughts?

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Arnold said "...Of course, once you decide to use seasonal pricing, you're then into deciding the dates of the seasons that you use. We thought about this and figured that the IBIS people obviously spend serious cash working out the dates so we just adopted their seasons"

IBIS around here don't only change their prices seasonally but change the amounts weekly and often at weekends !!

Arnold said ".....And of course, how much do you vary the prices between the low, mid and high seasons? Again, as the IBIS fork out big money on researching this we just track their prices ie if they drop 5€ going from high to low season, so do we (our prices aren't the same as theirs - just the relationship between our seasonal prices)"

We have July and August as high season.

We are 8 euros per double room more than the other months plus the family suite goes up by 10 euros. We have no problems as far as bookings are concerned, with doing this. The part of Brittany we live in has a minus 12% bed availablity on many nights in the last 17 days of July (at least) and up to around the 20th August. This is the same in May and other jours feriés, especially where the "pont" is used.

We have no mid season price as such and charge the lower rate until the high season starts. I notice that many CDH do actually keep the same tarif throughout the year but seeing as we could fill rooms many times over on many days, it surely makes business sense to go with the supply and demand strategy, just as the hotels and any other tourist related industry do.

The season in many places in France is short enough, so they also have to make their money when they can.

[mascamps.com]

I gather that it's largely the city IBISs that do the weekend pricing reduction as they are mainly business people during the week and aim to pick up more leisure travellers at the weekend to make up for the dropoff of business travellers at the weekend.  We don't get the volume of business travellers to justify the hassle of doing that but I would have thought that some CdH/inns would do although I've not seen any doing it.

The supply/demand thing is our reasoning for the seasonal prices too. What I can't understand is the people who, whilst turning away (or passing on) people over the summer, still stick to all-year pricing. You don't even need to be full to get an advantage - 80% full is just as good as 100% full if it brings in the same money. Better really, for it's less work.

A question that I'm sure I'll regret asking... aside from the guests deciding not to come 'cos you're increased the prices too much (or indeed too many coming because you've reduced them too much), is there any regulation on pricing for accommodation? If you found that your prices were too low in, say, the second week of August, could you increase them? (obviously honouring the price for any existing bookings)

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

No, with GDF, your prices are asked for during the year and you must decide there and then, what your prices will be for the following year. We cannot change them to GDF clients and as ones prices must be at the entrance and inside plus on the wall behind each bedroom door, so you simply can't just change them at will. I am not sure about all that 4 nights for 3, 7 for 6 etc as I am not sure if I have even read about it but I have never seen it in any GDF guide.

I guess quietly you could do offers on other sites but that would go down like a brick if found out by the regional GDF.

We had a friend in Provence who decided that he was fed up with having clients in dribs and drabs out of the high season that he gambled on putting in a lovely 12 X 6 metres pool, trebling the high season price and doubling the low/mid deason.......what happened ? he actually did take more money for a lot less bookings !!

That was 12 years ago, he sold to some Germans at a nice (very) premium in 2000

Bon courage for those that follow his lead, it has worked for a couple of others we have known since but you really need serious nerves of steel in the "poorer" seasons, as the booking do come in much later than the less expensive places.

[mascamps.com]

The published on paper prices would presumably always need to be fixed as you say. I can't see it being a runner to print 50€ in some publication and then quote 55€ when someone tried to book it, although that of course presupposes that you know where they got your contact details from.

On the internet though, just as you can put offer prices on, what I did last year was ramp the prices up during August as we filled (as the airlines do). I suppose if we were really on the ball we could get some flash "load management" software to adjust the prices airline-style too but I suspect you'd need a major league hotel to make that viable.

We revised the prices around the place upwards at the same time so when people came who had booked some time earlier they would have seen a price listed which was more than they paid but then that's fairly common. In fact, it will be more common as some places that list us routinely give discounts to people booking through them.

Re your Provencal friend, I experimented with offering really big discounts in the off season and found that, for us, there was no corresponding increase in the bookings. As it happens, we increased the rates when we took over by, if memory serves, something like 50% which had no adverse impact on the bookings (on a like for like comparison with the previous owners sources of reservations).

Arnold

 

[Anton Redman]

I think it depends what and where you are selling. I used to finish board meetings at 11:30 , type minutes be 11:40 and make the 14:00 ferry. From Calais we used to drive for four or five hours then look for somewhere typically French. For the last 10 years the issue has been finding somewhere decent within four hours of the channel ports whch is not fully booked. Find out what the competition do, all the years we travelled on a tight budget we were more interested in if the place looked clean than the total price 

If and only if you think you can persauade people to visit for a week in April or October by dropping the price then I would do so.  Other issue is that if you offer meals and wine then drop the price out of season makes sense

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Being in GdF implies not booggering around with the prices from one minute to the next as you have to fix them one year for the next. I actually think that's very much more ethical too.  I thought that GdF rather disapproved of  different high/season low season prices for B&B, not that this would discourage me if I thought it was right.

Yet again I seem to find myself in a minority of one. I don't like places ramping up the price just because they can get away with it. I won't go to places that do it and so I won't do it myself.

In fact, by keeping my prices stable year long, I am offering an off peak discount. I ought to charge for heating in the cooler times of the year.

As for other discounts, we are part of the Guide Routard 10% scheme, so when people come, using the GR, for more than 2 days off peak, we give a 10% discount if we have had sight of the Guide and the client asks for it (that's the way the scheme works). Apart from that, we don't. However, with people we really like who are staying a good while, we may very well do them a free meal. But it's our choice to do it, and doesn't feature in our publicity.

[mascamps.com]

As I say Ian, you can't change the prices in printed publications midstream, or certainly not ethically. Even aside from the printed publications, we're finding that we're having to set our prices 18 months in advance for some of the internet places we're starting to list on.

We normally wouldn't ramp the prices like that but as it was our first year we didn't know what the "correct" level was. In practice we only bumped up the price of our gite as it was surprisingly popular when we listed it as a four person "room" and initially hadn't sufficient differential between the price of that and our triple room. We've kept last years final summer price for that and it's already booked out for most of July (unusual for us as most people only book a couple of weeks ahead with us).

Going by our electric bill for the winter, we should probably take the prices up a good deal November to February too. In practice, we're pencilling in large parts of that period as holiday time for us in the future as we don't get a whole lot of people in (except for réveillon) and when you've only one or two people in, it's not really that profitable for us by the time you add in the heating costs.

We do long stay discounts too and for returning guests. We used to list them on the website but the problem now is that we have to pay commission for a lot of our bookings and can't always afford to reduce the price even more.

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Ian,

Let's put it another way, our normal price in high season is 55€ but in the other months we offer it at 47€, what is ramping up prices about that, is it in the way one says it, that makes the difference ? Are we giving discounts for out of season bookings or raising prices for the high season ?

We, unlike you, do not have the joys and cushion of a pension to bolster our income so we set our prices for logement and meals annually, on the basis of the gross sum we will require to pay all our cotisations etc, all our living expenses and some more to live A life, many equations and all of us requiring different amounts to live on.

As far as GDF disapproving the high/low pricing structure, no rule or thought has ever been made to my knowledge and indeed our area rep does exactly that. We are in a high tourist area and as I said before, there is a recognisd 12% shortfall of beds for over 5 weeks in high season, would you honestly say that if you were a business you would not charge a rate that is acceptable but slightly higher than the rest of they year for that period ? To my mind, only someone who had a business as a hobby would think like that

Going broke and having the huissiers in is all very well, as long as it is happening to others eh ? One simply has to set prices to suit the individual. If the price "works" and the rooms are full, then I see no "rip off" element whatsoever and if people do not understand those ethics, then tant pis, we shall survive on those guests that do see it as an acceptable price.

When all things are considered that because of the sheer demand and having to apologise to being full, we sometimes wonder if we are too cheap at times ! Many stay for 7 nights, many come back but as I say, we set the price on a number of factors, the first one being, what price is acceptable to prospective clients ?

You see Ian, you act like "mein hosts", we do as well but we see it as a business and our livelihood as well. Would you want to be the jolliest host to go in to redressement, as one refused bluntly to "ramp" (bad terminology as far as we are concerned)up the prices to survive ?

No, of course not but you have to see that sitting with the "comfort" of a pension and a turnover sufficient to live well on, as you do, it is easy to knock others (guests and hosts) that see it as perfectly acceptable. I hesitate to say it but I can barely think of any accommodation from campsites through hotel, auberges etc that do not raise their prices for the high season. There would be far, far less accomodation in France if this did not happen. For many it is the season for making their money for the year. It is a practice as old as holidays themselves.

I see no great difference in you offering GR clients the 10% discounts whilst GDF clients staying are paying the full whack. Are one lot being tucked up or are the other getting the right price ? I fully understand why one would offer discounts but one should also fully understand the need for many to put their prices up for the short high season.

We must all set our prices to suit our needs but more than that, we have to set them at a price that still encourages guests to book however that occurs, it won't happen if the client feels ripped off and THAT is the bottom line of setting prices in business, the world over.

[mascamps.com]

Indeed Miki.

Are Ian's GR clients (or at least those that read the small print) getting a 10% reduction, or are his GdF clients paying 11% more? I guess it depends on a) your point of view and b) the proportion of clients from each source.

On the pricing thing in general, we have shared our raw figures with friends of ours who we also had the seasonal pricing conversation with. They operate all-year prices and picked up a lot more people last summer than we did. On the other hand, as far as I can calculate we both made quite similar amounts of money (our places are very similar in size). So the question is: is it better for me to have, say, 100 clients paying 50€ or them to have 125 clients paying 40€? Both bring in exactly the same amount of money but, to my mind, it's probably better to have fewer clients paying that little bit more as they will (hopefully) get a better service.

In practical terms, we have perhaps half a dozen different prices for each room now at any one time depending on how people book. I think of our website price as being "the" price but in reality we get most bookings though a system that charges us 10% per booking so that's the "real" price from our perspective. Thanks to a bit of a marketing onslaught earlier in the year we are also listed with places that charge 12% and 15% not to mention the likes of places that charge a fixed amount for the year. You've certainly got it easy Ian if you've only the GdF and GR price to deal with at any one time!

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Miki and Arnold,

I've been doing some checking up. Out of 103 places listed in the Corrèze, only 2 definitely DO charge different prices in and out of the high season, and 3 may do (I can't find precise information). The rest don't. So can we say that 97% here don't do so? I don't think I want to be in that small a minority, whether it would bring me in more money or not.

Miki, my pricing policy is not affected by pensions or lack of them, it is done for entirely commercial reasons. I want to maximise my income, that's all. By keeping prices down, I keep my house full. When I compare my occupancy levels with the averages (which of course include my own place) for the Correze, we are about 2½ times the average. When I compare my length of let with the average we are about 1.8 times the average. Correze isn't Normandy, and what is commercially sensible for you, would probably be unsuccessful here.

If one charges one price for 2 months and another for 10, it is distinctly specious to say that the "real" price is the 2 months price and that the 10 months is a discounted price. The fact is, have the honesty to admit it, that in high season there's more demand than supply, so you increase the prices because the market will bear it. I prefer to set a price that I feel is honest, and keep to it the year round.

Arnold. You say it's better to make 1000E by having 8 rooms at 125 than 10 at 100. I can't say I agree, sorry. Because although in high season, those may be the figures, outside it, you'll find you have 2 rooms at 125 while your colleagues have 6 at 100.

Finally, Guide Routard. My prices as advertised everywhere, and to everyone - including GR are as they are. IF people arrive with the GR in hand, ask for the discount and stay more than 2 nights, they get 10%. This is not adding 11% for everyone else, that has to be pretty obvious.

As for whether GR is worth while... I suppose that about 25% of my total turnover comes from them, of which perhaps 20% would NOT be filled from elsewhere if they didn't come, as they are mainly out of season, while GdF are mainly in season. I'd not be in GR, if I were a lot more expensive, that's certain. So for sound commercial reasons, and because I want to be able to continue to take 2-3 month holidays all over the world, I do my damnedest to keep my income as high as possible by NOT antagonising my largest single source of clients.

 

 

[mascamps.com]

Whether or not seasonal pricing is worthwhile will depend on the area Ian. If the "high season" (for want of a better word) is quite short, then people will essentially be forced into using higher prices for that period and I think that in general such places would correspond with high demand over that short period. For instance, locally the coastal resorts close altogether outside the summer implying that even a 100% discount doesn't work.

Indeed the high season price is increased to reflect the demand and the extra costs associated with that demand. Our working hours are a good deal longer in the summer than in the winter too.

Because we do operate seasonal pricing and our friend doesn't, our out of season prices are very close to his. Therefore, whilst we get our 5000€ in the summer by renting 100 nights at 50€ vs his 125 nights at 40€ we both need the 125 nights in the winter to get the 5000€. Interestingly, we have both had very similar numbers of potential guests leave saying our prices were too high (both mostly French too) ie we aren't necessarily losing guests in the summer because our prices are too high (or at least not relative to our friends).

Ah, but, what if for some reason your GR/GdF split became 75/25 instead? Are you saying that then your real price would be the GR discounted one? It's like the old credit card argument back in the UK: the CC companies wanted to have prices quoted as "discount for paying cash" rather than "supplement for paying by credit card". Both are, of course, the same thing.

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Ian said "....Yet again I seem to find myself in a minority of one. I don't like places ramping up the price just because they can get away with it. I won't go to places that do it and so I won't do it myself.

In fact, by keeping my prices stable year long, I am offering an off peak discount. I ought to charge for heating in the cooler times of the year. "

Miki : The same could be said for us though Ian, we should charge more out of season perhaps due to the heating costs. It is a mute point to say you are offering a discount out of season because of those costs !

Ian said ".....I've been doing some checking up. Out of 103 places listed in the Corrèze, only 2 definitely DO charge different prices in and out of the high season, and 3 may do (I can't find precise information). The rest don't. So can we say that 97% here don't do so? I don't think I want to be in that small a minority, whether it would bring me in more money or not."

Miki : You could check every single CDH in France for all I personally care, what works for us is absolutely correct to our mind, if you are too moral to do it,(or more to the point, you feel you are unable to do so) can I suggest then that your business morality is for your part of France, not my part.

Ian said "....Miki, my pricing policy is not affected by pensions or lack of them, it is done for entirely commercial reasons"

Miki : I am astonished then, that 3 rooms can give you such high quality of life. Long holidays, high cotisations, expensive over heads etc etc…..I know many people with 3 rooms who are also very busy but they certainly need another job to be able to survive let alone have 2/3 months traveling the world. I have heard many folk on here agree with me, that it is not possible to survive purely on the turnover of just 3 rooms in a B&B, so I applaud you Ian.

Ian said "...I want to maximise my income, that's all. By keeping prices down, I keep my house full. When I compare my occupancy levels with the averages (which of course include my own place) for the Correze, we are about 2½ times the average. When I compare my length of let with the average we are about 1.8 times the average. Correze isn't Normandy, and what is commercially sensible for you, would probably be unsuccessful here"

Miki : Normandy ? with all due respect to the lovely people in Normandy, we are actually in Brittany.

By comparing your annual returns, has to be thought of just as much as British business acumen against French, something some regions rarely possess for the most part, is to show any entrepreneurial adaptability. As you have proved, just 3 adjust their prices, showing once again that sheep, French, like and follow are words best to describe much of their thoughts and actions in business. Or quite simply that CDH in the Correze cannot afford to put up their prices but my hunch, is that many would love to earn the extra few euros but the market won't take it.

You may well be showing how best to do it in the Correze but here in Brittany, if you brought that policy with you here, many here would have a higher turnover than you, even if you were fuller, your turnover would be less. Someone tell me the sense of that ?.

One works damned hard , “morality” for lack of a better word, is how much one is willing to charge without feeling you are ripping people off. We certainly are not, we are full with guests when the price rises and still we get many returns. So you keep to your policy and I see nothing wrong with how you price it in the Correze but don’t try to label those of us with some kind of “immoral” attitude just because we are able to benefit from the huge summer demand for rooms.

You have 2 in the Correze who “ramp up”their prices to suit the season, we have 57 from 192 here, and that’s just in the dept of Ille et Vilaine, who again quite correctly, take the opportunity to raise their prices to suit their own annual costs and the hard work required to gain the extra few euros. I notice on further looking, that most of those are in the high tourist areas, nice to see we are far from being alone and thankfully not all prospective guests are aghast at having to pay a small premium to those places that indeed put up their prices for the high season. It is that, or the possibility of many CDH's feeling it is not worth all the hard work and simply packing it all in ! Then where are the tourists going to stay ?

Very few tourist related places in France don’t put their prices up, to be quite honest. As I said before, nearly all the campsites, the hotels, Auberges in France do make a seasonal adaption to their prices.

Ian said "....If one charges one price for 2 months and another for 10, it is distinctly specious to say that the "real" price is the 2 months price and that the 10 months is a discounted price. The fact is, have the honesty to admit it, that in high season there's more demand than supply, so you increase the prices because the market will bear it. I prefer to set a price that I feel is honest, and keep to it the year round."

Miki : Taking the moral high ground is just ridiculous. We feel it is honest enough to put our prices up to suit the seasonal demand and that is shown quite clearly in all our publicity, it is not a sudden hike when we see crowds. Our pricing is done the year before and all the world can see our prices on the net as well as in Guides and Brochures. It is absolutely pathetic to simply state “look at me I am honest I keep one rate for the whole year” Well jolly good for you but you set your rate like that as you obviously cannot set it higher (only 2 in your region actually do so!)

Lastly, your stating that you would not use any place that "ramped" prices up, is an almost impossible position to permanently adhere to. I have no doubt whatsoever, that on your many travels, you would already been subjected to many seasonally adjusted prices and that includes the ferries and air travel as well as accommodation. It is all very well saying you would never do so for the sake of a point in a posting, whereas in reality, it is more or less totally impossible to carry it out ones priciples in reality.

Our prices are no less honest than yours and I take umbrage with any accusations that intimate such.

[winterbunny]

No we don't adjust for seasonal pricing - would that I could.  Is it not of lot of the time that the higher price is the realistic one and the out of season prices are discounted because there isn't so much demand - a thought

Our busy season(s) are actually spring and autumn, when I could fill twice over.  So no point in upping the price for summer; we would lose what we get.  As we have a steady winter clientele I'd love to put the price up to cover the extra heating and electricity costs (especially if they are here on red days); but feel I can't justify it, as people only expect to pay extra in the skiing areas in winter.  Hope that it evens out over the year.

Depends on the area and type of visitor I guess.  I the sth of France prices can be double in summer, as supply outstrips demand.

Buns

 

[mascamps.com]

As someone who is just about as far south as you can be and still be in France, I look forward to the day when we can double the prices for summer!

Buns... it's not cast in concrete that "high season" means "summer". If you can fill twice over any time of year, that's your high season and that's the time when your prices should be high. For instance, we found ourselves turning people away this Easter therefore next Easter we will probably adjust the prices upwards for that period (even though, in practice, it is only four days long) ie we will have a mini-high season right in the middle of our low season.

Ian: if seasonal pricing is dishonest, then the entire hotel industry is dishonest. As Miki pointed out a message or two back, the IBIS even change the prices at the weekend never mind for months at a time. I suspect that if you'd checked the room prices in Rome and Windsor a week or two back, you'd have found them quite considerably higher than normal too. Not just the hotels either - I'm quite sure Mrs Wren put her B&B prices way up too as she's just outside Windsor.

The seasonal pricing is just a reflection of supply and demand. It's no use for any of us to have a price that is either unrealistically low or unrealistically high. If collectively we put our prices up then we'll eventually find that more people will open CdH/inns/hotels/etc. in the area which, in the long run, will be to the advantage of future guests who'll eventually find lower prices. On the other hand if we collectively price too low a number of us will go out out of business which isn't to the advantage of future guests as they'll not have us to stay with.

 

Arnold

 

[winterbunny]

 

As someone who is just about as far south as you can be and still be in France, I look forward to the day when we can double the prices for summer!

I have friends along the coast and just inland, I know who have trouble letting for 30 euros a night in winter; but in summer can fill up quite happily for 65; it depends on where you are.  My friend's normal price is 65 she just has to discount in winter to get the room used.

Buns... it's not cast in concrete that "high season" means "summer". If you can fill twice over any time of year, that's your high season and that's the time when your prices should be high. For instance, we found ourselves turning people away this Easter therefore next Easter we will probably adjust the prices upwards for that period (even though, in practice, it is only four days long) ie we will have a mini-high season right in the middle of our low season.

No, but I couldn't justify a higher price in what people consider to still be out of season here.  I feel that we are at the top end of the local price range anyway.  For Easter week I turned away 4 potential bookings for people that rang up the week before.  I'm not sure I could cope with a wide range of pricing, and tend to stick with the one and hope that those I've had to turn away will try again at another time. 

Buns

[mascamps.com]

We presently run with 67€ including breakfast in summer, 57€ in winter. I've played around with the winter price and found that in practice it didn't seem to make a whole lot of difference if I was charging 57€ or 42€. I do have the feeling that perhaps our winter price is a bit high in that we have 8 UK flights a day in summer vs 1 in the winter (we're not presently listed on the Airfrance site hence their flights don't count).

However, we will almost certainly be full most of next year as it looks like we may have drawn the short straw and be making our TV debut in January (filming over the summer) so perhaps we should just hike the prices up now!

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Arnold said "...However, we will almost certainly be full most of next year as it looks like we may have drawn the short straw and be making our TV debut in January (filming over the summer) so perhaps we should just hike the prices up now!"

Arnold, I did warn you a while back, that two friends and some people we have met since being seen on TV, did not come out of it too well.

You will be novelty value IF, you come across as stupid and bumbling (can you do bumbling and stupid, at the same time !!) IF you look good or even half useful, you will be found on the cutting room floor and no 10 minutes of fame for you my lad !

I am serious, several hundreds of hours go in to each series and only the dumbest will survive.

You have been warned, start the act now, so as to be ready for the arrival of the luvvies !!

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Arnold said:-

then people will essentially be forced into using higher prices for that period and I think that in general such places would correspond with high demand over that short period.

Which, means, as I said. "Demand outstrips supply in high season, so we can get away with higher prices."  That's what I said is the rationale behind high season prices.

Miki says exactly the same thing, with more heat and umbrage. I reject the idea that relative to the number of rooms occupied one works harder in summer. In fact, I would argue that by applying higher prices in summer, one would tend to get shorter stays and therefore CREATE more work. Of course we  work harder in Summer, but by renting more rooms we get more money for it.  The ONLY reason people increase prices at times of high demand, is to make more from people who don't have much choice but to pay.

Miki produces the argument that because Airlines, Rome hotels and Ferries do it, it's OK for Chambres d'Hôtes to do it. That's a non argument, in my book. I know they do, and I don't like that either. Ask your clients when they come across the Channel what they think of the Ferry companies' summer vs winter pricing policy?  NO one likes paying "high season" prices. But because demand outstrips supply, people do.

You all know that's the simple truth.  You have your ideas of whether it's right or wrong, I have mine. You're perfectly entitled to say what you think, so am I.

Miki says that I do pay high season prices. Perhaps, though if I can choose between two places, suppliers or whatever, one of which does apply seasonal prices and the other doesn't, I'll choose the one who doesn't. If I can't then I'll do my damndest to go out of season. Because that's the way I think, as a customer, then I'll not make other people do what I hate doing myself.

One final point, Miki. I don't live off B&B, it pays for my holidays. I started it up with that aim, and I pay all my B&B income into a separate account just for that.  However, I have expensive tastes in holidays, so I do my level best to make sure my lettings income is as high as it can be.

I've said it many times, I think one has to be extremely lucky and hard working to be able to live off B&B. If we didn't have the pensions we worked hard to earn, we'd not have been able to come here. We never had the slightest intention of doing B&B when we came, it was a complete accident. However, it does pay for the most magnificent holidays, and long may they last. But I'll tell you this, Miki, if tomorrow our pensions disappeared, so all I had to live on was what we could earn here, I'd not charge high season prices, even if I did think it wouldn't harm our turnover, or if I knew it would boost our income. It's clear you don't agree, so let's drop it.  

[mascamps.com]

It's certainly true to say that just because hotels do it doesn't mean that CdH's should. Not having to recruit staff in the summer must make a tremendous difference in CdH vs hotel running costs on like for like comparisons. Air conditioning too isn't very common (yet) in CdHs which obviously will bump up the running costs in the height of summer.

However, we find that our costs are higher in the summer in a number of areas. We can't just add a box of cornflakes for the guests to our normal shopping as we do in the winter; we have to add 5 boxes. If it were only the cornflakes, that wouldn't be a big deal but we need to buy considerably more of everything therefore we have to bring the trailer along all the time thereby taking our transport costs up quite a bit.

Not only that but we can't time our purchases to buy when there's an offer on so on average the prices we pay in the summer are a good bit higher than the winter prices.

We also find that we have to travel further afield for numerous items as the local cash & carry places run out of key things. Last year our biggest problem was soap and we ended up having to import that because we just couldn't get it anywhere locally at all.

It's things like that which go into our higher summer charges. Our extra 10€ a night definitely isn't all profit.

 

Re the telly... I reckon that I have stupid and bumbling off pat by now   Patrick (of Chaos in the Castle) was telling me not to worry about that as they specially look out for the times when you are at your daftest.

We have the advantage that Wendy's parents were both in films (very small parts so, sadly, I'm not a kept man) which will have us asking about our residuals upfront if nothing else.

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Ian said : ".. In fact, I would argue that by applying higher prices in summer, one would tend to get shorter stays and therefore CREATE more work"

Miki : Higher prices I am very glad to say, does not mean any shorter stays than in the other periods, in fact a quick look at our last 6 seasons here in Brittany show an increase in the length of stays in the high season. Sadly or otherwise, it certainly shows that you are completely out of touch and are speaking solely from the backwater of the Correze. Your argument certainly does not stand up here in Brittany.

Ian said : "Of course we work harder in Summer, but by renting more rooms we get more money for it. The ONLY reason people increase prices at times of high demand, is to make more from people who don't have much choice but to pay"

Miki : No choice ? Our prices are shown well in advance, plenty of other places to choose from, so why do we fill up quicker than many of our lower priced “competitors” ? Difficult question to answer is it not ? Obviously those that book when other options are available do NOT feel we are doing anything at wrong and still prefer to stay with us, even though we are possibly a few euros dearer than another local CDH.

Ian said : "Miki produces the argument that because Airlines, Rome hotels and Ferries do it, it's OK for Chambres d'Hôtes to do it. That's a non argument, in my book. I know they do, and I don't like that either. Ask your clients when they come across the Channel what they think of the Ferry companies' summer vs winter pricing policy? NO one likes paying "high season" prices. But because demand outstrips supply, people do."

Miki : Oh dearie me, we are all of 8 euros per night more and we are being compared to BF and the like ! Your “moral lecturing” is starting to sound very much more like sour grapes than any sensible reason to be honest. As I said, our area rep does it and on further inspection 3 other inspectors we know, also do it, how can you stand to be in an organisation that takes guests for fools !

Sure people do not like the hike in ferry crossings, so many now take the cheaper ferries to and from the Pas de Calais area. They will save pots of money by doing that, those that chose us in place of cheaper places will do that, one is free to chose cheaper ferries, cheaper CDH, dearer ferries and slightly dearer CDH's. Long may there be a choice and long may there be people with shorter pockets than you, who see nothing wrong with having a choice of prices and whether to pay them or walk away !

Ian said "...Miki says that I do pay high season prices. Perhaps, though if I can choose between two places, suppliers or whatever, one of which does apply seasonal prices and the other doesn't, I'll choose the one who doesn't."

Miki : Please do make your mind up, either you won't pay it (as you have so clearly stated) or you will, don’t look for a way out now. Get real Ian, we all have to handle the vagaries of seasonal holidays etc. Paying a premium, however small or large, has been here since the Vikings.

Ian said "... If I can't then I'll do my damndest to go out of season. Because that's the way I think, as a customer, then I'll not make other people do what I hate doing myself."

Miki : Sorry I simply do not believe it. Surely one takes a holiday to suit the business or to suit the seasonal weather where one is going. If is dearer, so what, that’s life. I and many millions of others, have been brought up on how it works and always has done, I think you are doing a good impression of Harold Steptoe to be honest! If you think that airlines, hotels and all accommodation could run on your principles then you are seriously out of touch with the economics of business. And yes, we are in the same business, you might not be but many of us in the CDH gane, most certainly feel we are.

Ian said "...One final point, Miki. I don't live off B&B, it pays for my holidays. I started it up with that aim, and I pay all my B&B income into a separate account just for that. However, I have expensive tastes in holidays, so I do my level best to make sure my lettings income is as high as it can be"

Here we go again, shift the goalposts. You stated that you run your B&B to suit your lifestyle and the pension is not even taken in to account. Well try it without then and let’s see how you get on ! Of course you must take your pension in to account, otherwise you couldn’t buy or do many of the things you do.

You stated "Miki, my pricing policy is not affected by pensions or lack of them, it is done for entirely commercial reasons. I want to maximise my income, that's all"

You can clearly see that your pension is fully involved in your lifestyle and your pricing structure has to "marry in", so that it supplements your pension. Take the pension away and the whole income structure goes out the window, simple as that.

I have never heard such a bigotted view on how others should price their places. I have never ever worried about the why's and wherefores of others CDH's price structure. I really can't believe you have such a low opinion of those of us that follow the old and ancient way of seasonal pricing. I will say it again, our prices are every bit as honest as yours and it's time to get down from your high horse and admit it..

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Miki,

I'm sorry if I've touched a raw nerve. I'll not post on this again. However it seems as if you've not been reading what I've said.

Here we go again, shift the goalposts. You stated that you run your B&B to suit your lifestyle and the pension is not even taken in to account. Well try it without then and let’s see how you get on ! Of course you must take your pension in to account, otherwise you couldn’t buy or do many of the things you do.

I've not shifted any goalposts. I set my CdH prices to maximise my long term CdH income. I don't take my pension into account when setting my CdH prices, why should I? My pension pays for my life here - all of it, while the Cdh pays for our holidays. If we didn't have the CdH we'd have the money we invested and would use that for holidays, what's the problem in understanding that?

You can clearly see that your pension is fully involved in your lifestyle

Of course it is. It pays for my lifestyle, as I've said consistently.

And your pricing structure has to "marry in", so that it supplements your pension.

No it doesn't marry in to anything. It doesn't supplement anything, it pays quite separately for my holdays/travel. 2½ months down the West coast of the USA last autumn for example. Next trip will be down the Andes from Venezuela to Ushuaia.

 Take the pension away and the whole income structure goes out the window, simple as that.

Well of course it would. But take our CdH income away and things would be much worse, we'd not be able to take our glorious holidays. As I've said consistently my CdH income has no effect on my day-to-day lifestyle.

[mascamps.com]

I've one point of partial agreement with Ian: increasing the prices will, in broad terms, reduce the average length of stay from what it would otherwise have been.

If you think about it, most people do not have unlimited cash to pay for holidays. Therefore, increasing the price from, say, 50€ a night to 60€ a night is bound to have some effect. However, it will be a very limited effect I think.

If someone stays for 10 days, that has added 100€ to their costs ie the equivalent of staying another 2 days. But, it isn't quite so simple as that because the accommodation cost isn't their only holiday expense and, in general, it is one of the smaller costs. In high season you are looking at perhaps 200€ return on Ryanair vs 50€ return off season, there's the car hire as well to add in for those notional extra 2 days (another 100€ or so) plus petrol, food, etc. and indeed they might not have enough holiday time anyway to take those extra 2 days.

So overall, on a short (day 3-5 break) the additional costs make any increase on our part insignificant and on the longer stays we might lose the odd day from a 10-14 day holiday but I don't think that's going to make any noticeable difference on the amount of work that we need to do in the summer.

I know your length of stays has been increasing Miki (as has ours) but that's a side-effect of your growing reputation in the guides and word of mouth etc, all combining to mask any reduction in length that might be happening as a consequence of increasing prices.

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

[quote]Hi Miki, I'm sorry if I've touched a raw nerve. I'll not post on this again. However it seems as if you've not been reading what I've said. Here we go again, shift the goalposts. You stated that y...[/quote]

Not so much a raw nerve but one thing I cannot abide is someone who thinks because they live in one part of France then they can quote for all of France. You may well know the Creuse like the back of your hand but believe me there are many parts of France that are far and away from how it is there.

I believe that "hitting a raw nerve" could also be that you work just as hard as many others but you simply cannot get the same returns and so wish to quite stupidly (IMHO) say that you wouldn't stay anywhere that raised prices etc yet everyone knows it is impossible not to be affected by this extremely widely used business practice.

Yes I read it well and I stick to the same thinking, you cannot possibly seperate the two things, it is like saying "the rent money is in the teapot", "the electric money is behind the cereal packets" the money can only stem from one thing, your overall income, i.e earnings amd pension. How you wish to say they are spent cannot come down to simply believing one lot is for one thing and the other for something else. Again, take one away and your system falls flat, now I don't believe you are that stupid a fellow not to see the thinking behind that.

Arnold,

No it doesn't matter whether or not they are frequent visitors or not or whether our advertisng is bringing in more than ever, the pricing structure is still the same. They either pay the rate or they don't. No one is forced to stay with us, we are for the most part, full well before the high season kicks in, so we are not grabbing last minute stragglers who will pay anything to get a room. Whether anyone stays one day or a week, the price is the same nightly rate, once again I repeat, the choice is with the client, they know the price and tthey can accept it or not. We are honest enough to say it a very long time in front qnd if we didn't and followed the IBIS method, tant pis, that's business. We are not here for our health but to feed, clothe and pay our way and with 3 kids here, when we first moved here in the first place and still one to get through school, we feel 100% correct in how we operate.

Having just a lifestyle and a luxury holiday to work for, doesn't even come close to how we have to make our living and how much we need to earn and that's really what the difference comes down to, how much one needs without ripping people off and not having bizarre ideals about price structuring.

[Coco]

I've been reading this thread with great interest, as whilst in theory I have never agreed with putting prices up just because a specific time of year is popular, I do understand the need to do such a thing in a totally seasonally led industry. 

I put my prices up in July, August and September, but only by 10 euros a room (I'd love to put them up more because of the demand, but fear that I just MIGHT price myself out of the market).  If I didn't charge more in those summer months I wouldn't be able to afford to run the business.  And of course there is the point that I think Winterbunny raised, "are we putting our prices UP in the summer or bringing them DOWN in the winter?"  I believe I'm bringing mine down in the winter because I would like to charge 50 euros all year round and judging by the accommodation in the area (other CDH, small hotels, chateaux and chain hotels)  I think that is a fair price.  However, one reason I charge less during the other months is because everyone else does the same, therefore my differential would be too great out of season.  The other reason I charge less, is to try and encourage people to come out of season.  I have to turn so many people away in August that if I offer lower rates for the rest of the year maybe, just maybe, I could encourage some of those who don't HAVE to take their holidays in August, to come at a different time.

A point that no one else has raised here in the pricing issue is that of charging extra the more people there are in a room.  Our price is for 2 people sharing a room and includes breakfast.  However, we can take up to two children in two of our rooms but people seem reluctant to pay more than an extra 5 euros or so to have their kids in with them.  During my first season I did this.  But then I realised that very often a 12 year old boy will eat twice as much for breakfast as his mother and there is still extra bed linen and towels to wash, even if they are all in the same room.  This year I have decided to charge an extra 15 euros per child in a room, although I do not charge for use of our cot for the under 2's.

I think that the whole seasonal variation question is one of survival, although occasionally there can be a moral issue involved as well.  For example, last summer we had the 60th anniversary of the D-Day landings and places in this area were upping their prices by as much as 20 euros a night and were clearly getting full.  I would have been a mug not to have raised mine but I had the moral dilemma of taking advantage of such an "opportunity" and consequently the people who had been involved.  In the end I charged by "high season" rate but clearly advertised that I would offer a 10% discount on my "low season" rate for any veterans booking, including a discount on meals.  It's interesting to note that I didn't get a single enquiry from any veteransand yet there were hundreds staying around here - often in the places who had hiked their prices.  So what can we make of that!!????

I do think Ian, that although you say you don't take your pension into account when planning your prices, it has to make it easier to take the moral high ground on NOT having a seasonal variation if your B&B is paying for the luxuries in life and not for putting food on the table.  If we didn't take advantage of the high season we wouldn't be able to make a living out of our B&B.  And again, as someone else said, if B&Bs couldn't survive and went bust, there would be less to choose from and prices could well go up.  Our local tourist office is desparate to encourage us and always phones up in February to find out what our high and low season prices will be - they expect it.