Guests Blacklist

[Quillan]

Talking to another B&Ber who has had a problem he asked me if their is a central register either officially or unofficially of blacklisted guests say for people who repeatedly do 'no shows' or nick stuff from rooms etc. I had to say I did not know and the only way I could think was to 'ask the panel'.

[winterbunny]

GdF circulate a general email about particularly problem guests, the one that seemed to crop up a lot last year and this is, a lorry driver from Belgium, seems he does a flit every time! 

As I ask for deposits or up front payments if I feel it necessary, I haven't had a problem --Yet............it'll happen one day.

Take the car numbers, it might help identify them for others and always notify the gendarmerie so they can be on the look out.

Buns

[Miki]

Not as such.

But with GDF we are sent "watch out for this or that person as they have done this or that" As a group around here, if we ever hear of anyone in the area that has done something against one or the other, we simply use the jungle drums to warn others but it is pretty rare we ever have to warn anyone about something.

The only people we have ever been "knocked" by, were an English family with young kids from the Vendee who we took in as they were getting desperate for a place late at night and their French cheque bounced and contrary to some common belief among the Brits about cheques not being able to bounce, we never ever got the money back.

Sorry bunny to more or less quote the same thing but I started this at 20h00 and guests called me away and I left it live and then posted it.

[Coco]

I'd have thought a central "blacklist" would be riddled with legal problems, not least, what actually constitutes a bad guest.  I mean, I had one over the bank holiday weekend who I think was extremely rude and left early, but where do you stand legally if you say anything about him.  I think Miki's jungle drums are probably the best solution. 

For example, if I knew he was heading off to Brittany I would definitely have emailed Miki privately JUST IN CASE....   And it's always the ones you bend over backwards for.  He had phoned the week before to ask how close we were to Saint Lo.  I told him 18kms and he said that was the nearest he had been able to find.  He was coming on a coach to St Lo to watch his son in a rugby tournament but didn't want to "camp out" in the salle d'exposition with the boys.  He thought he would be able to "hop into a taxi" which I made absolutely clear to him would NOT be possible in rural France.  However, he booked nonetheless and intended to arrive on my birthday (when we were going out to dinner)  I asked him to give me an arrival time because of this but all he did was leave me a phone message the evening before arrival, despite about 4 emails from me, saying that he was aware it was my birthday and would TRY to accommodate my request for him to arrive by 7pm.  That put my back up to start with.  I knew he wouldn't get a taxi ad hoc, so in the end I phoned Saint Lo Rugby Club to find out the itinerary, then spent the whole morning phoning round for a taxi for him and eventually BEGGED an extremely nice chap in Saint Lo to do the job.  When he arrive (7.30pm) he started complaining about how far he was from Saint Lo.  The following morning, when his taxi arrived to take him to watch the matches, he announced that he would be "bunking in" with a friend who had managed to find a room in Saint Lo that night, so wouldn't need his second night's accommodation after all.   He paid up for the first night and hopped into the taxi before I had chance to draw breath!!!!   Between the time that he had booked and arrived I had turned away 3 lots of Dutch and Belgian people who had wanted all three nights of the holiday weekend and ended up getting one night from a very rude upper-class twit!!!  So I ended up doing a lot of phoning around and hanging around for my 50 euros and losing out on what would probably have been a much easier booking for 150!

Bit of a long story I know, but I think it illustrates what I mean about legalities involved in blacklisting people.  I'd never have him back again, he cost me money and he was rude and inconsiderate.  But I suppose legally he did nothing wrong - and as he had his own legal practice in south England, he probably damn well knew it!!!

 

[Loiseau]

My uncle, who has a hotel in Cornwall, makes it a rule never to accept bookings from somebody if they have written you more than five letters (or emails) before arrival.  He says they're always trouble...

This rule was borne out by friends in the Vendee who let a gite (OK, I know that's off-topic!) to some people who had written a file-full of letters, including having sent a photograph of themselves at their own home to see if my friends thought that the gite would suit people like themselves!  They complained ceaselessly, got my friends out at all hours to do things like turn off the hot tap in the sink (not kidding), damaged the washing machine, blocked up the septic tank, broke stuff, stole stuff . . . and left early.

Angela

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

I've never heard of a blacklist as such, but have sometimes wondered whether it wouldn't be a good idea. Like the person who wrote on company email, (travel company). Cheque's in the post - but we hope it will get there in time as we use (enter name of some shipping company) instead of GPO. They were flying into Bordeaux, arriving 6.pm middle of the winter. Cheque didn't arrive by the day, but well.... what do you do? So we put on heating and hoped. It snowed that night, so I waited up till 3 am no show. No answer to email, so I wrote to travel company. "Ms whatsit" no longer works for the company, she booked entirely in her own name, no company liability.

GRRRR. I would be seething if I'd suffered the case of Maggie's ill mannered slob.

I've only once been contacted by GdF, when someone was wandering around the country apparently, never paying. Mind you, I would not expect them to be able to keep such a register, legally, nor warn us all about bad pennies.

[Coco]

My uncle, who has a hotel in Cornwall, makes it a rule never to accept bookings from somebody if they have written you more than five letters (or emails) before arrival.  He says they're always trouble...

I'd agree with that one Angela.  The two or three that we have had who have gone into long exchanges have always ended up being a pain in the b***  In fact, last year we did have someone who, after his 6th or 7th email, I wrote to and said that I didn't think our B&B was up to his standards and that he would be better off booking into the Churchill (4 star) Hotel in Bayeux.  I just knew that nothing would be right for him.

[Val_2]

One of the ladies on our board at the local tourist office had a very bad experience with british guests in her gîte last year. They totally trashed the place and left her with hundreds of euros worth of replacements and cleaning to do.You may say this was her fault and I suppose in a way it was,but,they had to leave at an ungodly hour to catch the ferry early morning and she visited them the day before to give them their deposit back and everything seemed OK, it was when she went in later after they had vacated that she found everything damaged or stolen. She was so upset that she has circulated their names and address to all the local property rentals as they mentioned they would be back again this year. I felt so embarressed when this came up but no way would I appologise for their behaviour, these type of brits coming to France are definately NOT wanted here.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Val said

> I felt so embarressed when this came up but no way would I >appologise for their behaviour, these type of brits coming >to France are definately NOT wanted here.

I'm sorry, but first of all there's a total non-sequitur here and secondly I don't agree at all.

I don't see how the fact they they're not wanted, follows in any way from or to the lack of apologies on their behalf.

I most certainly WOULD apologise - as a British person - and I'd have gone further, offering to write to the person who did the deed, in _English_ on her behalf, saying that their name and address would been circulated as widely as possible, unless a suitable (up to your contact to say how much) compensatory payment was received.

I agree that this type of Brit is not wanted, but the best way to make sure they understand that, is to contact them and let them know _exactly_ what you think of them, as a fellow Brit, but one living in the area.

I remember once, I was asked by the local Notaire to do a tricky piece of translation when a brit couple wanted a buy a local chateau. They had some legit grievances, but nothing whatsoever justified their behaviour in demanding this, that and the other, including the removal of beans planted on their land, which were just about to be ready, for example, _before_ they signed the act definitif.

I took them to one side, read them the riot act, explaining that _once_ they had signed AND handed over the money, they could say who could do what, and also saying that throwing their weight around wasn't any way to make friends and influence people.

So I must say that I do feel to responsible in a kind of way for the behaviour of my fellow Brits, and really hate it when they behave badly.

[Lesbatees]

Nice to hear I'm not the only one who believes in the "more than five emails" rule! I would add a rider - the number of questions they ask is in inverse proportion to their propensity to book.

The majority of our guests so far have been really nice people. There is only couple I wouldn't have back - and I doubt they'd come anyway. She booked our family room for one night with evening meal via email, then after a couple of weeks emailed to ask if we could do them breakfast on the day of arrival and let them have the room early as they were coming via the tunnel and driving all night with two small kids. We agreed, and they duly arrived for breakfast at 08.30 am. We rushed around like mad getting the room ready, while they went out for a walk. On return, they announced gaily they were moving on to their ultimate destination, as "there was nothing around here for the children." They offered to "settle up", implying that they only wanted to pay for the breakfast, and he made a very nasty remark about "lousy customer service" when I insisted on charging them for the room as it was highly unlikely we'd be able to re-let at such short notice. They took their leave, and I was glad to see the back of them. I'd have been even more annoyed if we'd shopped for dinner the day before as we'd originally planned. I don't think I'd have minded so much if we hadn't gone out of our way to accommodate them with the breakfast, etc.

[Deby]

Oh dear!

I am now getting nervous, my husband took a booking last September for this September from an American lady who sends him an email (or latest update!) at least once a month, so much so I have nicknamed her 'his girlfriend'! 

She seems very chatty, tells of her life in someplace in the US, her love of french life and it goes on...  I am sure she is very nice, but oh dear I am now concerned

Deby

[winterbunny]

I can agree with the 5 emails or more.  We have been having emails from a couple since October; I detected it early on as a hoax, as the dates kept changing, and they were asking peculiar questions; I finally got fed up with it as time wasting as the season got underway, so pressed them for a deposit within a fixed period of time and lo and behold they decided they weren't even coming to France after all!! Quelle surprise. 

It doesn't matter if it's genuine, having to keep replying to non specific emails is time consuming; if it's a good time away ask them for a deposit; if they are genuine they will understand that you can't keep a room months or so ahead without some promise that they will show.  You know the whole idea is to sell our rooms, and if we can't close that deal early on, it probably isn't going to happen.

There's one or 2 I wouldn't have back and one lot I suggested to them that they'd be better off self catering and what about those who sneaked friends in for a quick shower or those that decide not to eat with you but picnic in their rooms and leave a mess of food for you to clear up 

Buns

[mascamps.com]

There was a blacklist started by the French equivalent of this very forum (the name of which escapes me at the moment). Unfortunately it ran into the sand over legal concerns from the people hosting it.

Basically the problem that they had was that anyone registered on the site could say anything about anyone. So, for instance if I said that Mr X was an awful guest and I'd never have him again then, at minimum, Mr X would have to be informed that there was a comment recorded against him and offered the opportunity to comment on that. That particular aspect is where they hit the bother if memory serves.

I think that it would be OK to hold purely factual information about Mr Y if, say, he didn't pay or his cheque bounced. He'd obviously still need to be informed of the information held (Data Protection and all that) and given the opportunity to correct any factually incorrect information but then the only way he could "correct" that is by paying up.

The problem is, of course, that to be really useful a blacklist would need to hold both the "subjective information" (ie that Mr X wouldn't be accepted again) and the factual information (ie that Mr Y didn't pay). Although, something that just listed the non-payers would be pretty useful too.

Even if you could get someone prepared to host such a list, there's also the problem for the people posting the comments - to say that Mr X is an awful guest is leaving the poster open to legal "issues" as well as the person who hosts the list.

I wonder if the way around it is to do it via e-mail? I gather that's what's done in Australia. Just try booking into another place there after you've skipped without paying and you'll find that you'll be spending the night on the street (or so I'm told). Presumably the e-mail approach was used to get around the issue of a) holding a publically available blacklist and b) "publishing" negative information about people.

Whilst we've not (yet) had anyone that we'd be saying "never again" I'm sure that's just a matter of time; we've two non-payers that we'd be adding to the list.

Out of curiosity, what's the breakdown for others here? If the list did exist, how many people would be in the "never again" category and how many in the "didn't pay" category? If it's mostly in the second category then perhaps it would be worth persuing the legal possibilities as I think that type of list would be easier to do legally.

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Arnold,

In ten years (only three rooms, of course) I've never had anyone who stayed and didn't pay.

I've had some "no shows" as well, mostly those who "booked" too late for us to be able to get a deposit from them - so they're on my personal blacklist.

As for those I'd refuse. I've had a few, perhaps 6 couples in all. I guess that out of the average 150 to 200 or so couples we get a year, we'd not be sorry never to see 25 again - not because they are really unpleasant, just because they are generally rather negative.

[Coco]

As for those I'd refuse. I've had a few, perhaps 6 couples in all. I guess that out of the average 150 to 200 or so couples we get a year, we'd not be sorry never to see 25 again - not because they are really unpleasant, just because they are generally rather negative.

Do you mean per year Ian?  That seems awefully high! - I think I'd give up if I had that many.  It looks as though we have a similar amount through the door as you, but I'd put my number at about 2 or 3 per year that I wouldn't care if I never saw again.  Usually because they seem to think they are at a 4 star hotel and are extremely demanding for what they're paying, or they are rude and don't respect the fact that they are in my home. 

As far as not paying goes, I haven't had anyone do a runner but I've had two lots leave early and not pay for the nights they booked and didn't stay and unfortunately last year I had a LOT of American no-shows because I had no way of taking deposits from them.  Hopefully that's been rectified this year with Paypal.

[mascamps.com]

Taking deposits doesn't really eliminate the no-show problem. We get a lot of our bookings via reservation systems which a) charge a deposit upfront and b) give us the credit card details to charge the first night for no-shows so it's pretty expensive not to turn up yet still we get them.

I was really staggered by the number that we got last summer (and it's mostly the summer that you get them) - maybe two or three a month from August to October. As I say, when you add up the cost to them you wonder why they don't call to cancel and save themselves 40€ or so.

We've only had two non-payers so far. One French couple didn't sign the cheque and aren't responding to our letters and another English couple checked out early without telling us, leaving 40€ in the room to cover about 100€ worth of bills which is pretty annoying considering that they'd have had to pay 60€ for a taxi back to the airport vs our 10€ charge ie they could have paid us if only they'd said they were leaving early.

I'd say that our "don't want them back" list is pretty short. Perhaps 1 or 2% of the total. Even then, I don't think we've any in the "wouldn't take them at all" category.

I think we'd have another 1 or 2% on the "wouldn't encourage them back" for various reasons. Mainly the reason is "too demanding" and because of that I'm in two minds about one comment that is currently listed for us on the websites: "...  and the owners were very attentive (more than any 5 stars hotel I've been in)." as it might raise expectations to unrealistic levels.

 

Arnold

 

[mascamps.com]

Taking deposits doesn't really eliminate the no-show problem. We get a lot of our bookings via reservation systems which a) charge a deposit upfront and b) give us the credit card details to charge the first night for no-shows so it's pretty expensive not to turn up yet still we get them.

I was really staggered by the number that we got last summer (and it's mostly the summer that you get them) - maybe two or three a month from August to October. As I say, when you add up the cost to them you wonder why they don't call to cancel and save themselves 40€ or so.

We've only had two non-payers so far. One French couple didn't sign the cheque and aren't responding to our letters and another English couple checked out early without telling us, leaving 40€ in the room to cover about 100€ worth of bills which is pretty annoying considering that they'd have had to pay 60€ for a taxi back to the airport vs our 10€ charge ie they could have paid us if only they'd said they were leaving early.

I'd say that our "don't want them back" list is pretty short. Perhaps 1 or 2% of the total. Even then, I don't think we've any in the "wouldn't take them at all" category.

I think we'd have another 1 or 2% on the "wouldn't encourage them back" for various reasons. Mainly the reason is "too demanding" and because of that I'm in two minds about one comment that is currently listed for us on the websites: "...  and the owners were very attentive (more than any 5 stars hotel I've been in)." as it might raise expectations to unrealistic levels.

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Coco asks.

Do you mean per year Ian?  That seems awfully high! - I think I'd give up if I had that many.  It looks as though we have a similar amount through the door as you, but I'd put my number at about 2 or 3 per year that I wouldn't care if I never saw again.  Usually because they seem to think they are at a 4 star hotel and are extremely demanding for what they're paying, or they are rude and don't respect the fact that they are in my home. 

I think we mean different things by "wouldn't mind if I don't ever see them again". I meant it literally. Turn it on it's head, that means that of the 150 to 200 we'd be SAD if we never saw 125 to 175 of them again, because we've got on so well with them.

So to expand, I'd guess that it's best described as being that we didn't really make any kind of bond of friendship with perhaps 25, either because they were distant, or just not very forthcoming. OK?

As for rude, 4 star hotel and that sort of thing, yes, I have had some, not many, and I have my version of the 5 email/phone call rule (with which I agree 100%, by the way), and if I get bad vibes at the start, I usually try to persuade them - gently - that they might perhaps be better off elsewhere - the parking, you know, or "we hope you like church bells" There's usually some way.

But in general, we usually get on extremely well with our guests, tu-toi-ing and kissing on the cheeks and using first names. Like Pierre and Danielle, who came for three nights and left this morning. We go to a wine show near Lyon every year and they live just a spit away from the village where it's held, "When you come, get in touch with us before hand and we'll put you up, we would love to let you taste our cooking," and so on.

So I agree with you, if we had as many as 25 a year who were really disagreeable, we'd seriously wonder what we were doing wrong, and whether we ought to be continuing.

Coming now to the business of cancellations. I wouldn't always want to put such a client on a black list. As it happens, by the most extraordinary coincidence, while I was writing this letter, I had a phone call from a chap, phoning from Brussels. "My wife made a booking with you for 17th June, and I'm really sorry, but we won't be able to make it. It's my fault, my job has changed my holidays." I started to bring up the fact that they had paid a deposit, and he immediately interrupted to say that he wouldn't hear of us returning it! So I suggested that I'd keep it, but if ever they decided to come anywhere near here again, (we are some 800 km from Brussels!), we'd put it towards their stay. Now that's the sort of client who I'd not consider putting on any kind of black list even if they HAD cancelled. Thoroughly charming and honourable, and I sincerely hope we see them one day.

As for deposits and Americans, we don't have THAT many of them, but we simply ask for a cheque in dollars for around $30. We've never had one no show! One cancellation, and I simply gave the cheque to an American friend in the village, so she could pay it into her account in the States and repay me in Euros! Worked a treat, and avoided bank charges (which I hate!). When they arrive, I give them the cheque back and they pay cash. KISS. (Keep it simple, stoopid!)