rules and regulations - do they apply to us?

[Jongleurs]

Hello all

Just had a good read through the information Chris posted re setting up both chambre et table d'hotes and have a couple of questions?

-   am I correct in my understanding that there is no need to register if this is not your main   source of income i.e. irregular business?

-    if I am running an occasional chambre/table d'hotes do I still  need the petit restaurant licence if I wish to serve drinks of almost any kind and if so does everyone here have one, how are they policed and how difficult is it to get one?

-    would I still need to display tariffs etc., outside, in our hallway/reception and in all rooms?

-    how many of you have table and chair(s) in each bedroom and would a bedside table and chair comply?

At the moment we are just considering our options.  We have a house that we intend to rent out in its entirety for the main season and are considering supplementing this with bed and breakfast/evening meal at other times.  This would not be our main income but we would be declaring any revenue as income.

Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

Fiona

www.lesjongleurs.com

 

 

[winterbunny]

Hi Fiona, you are going to get a lot of differing opinions on this one.

So my first suggestion would be a make a plan of how often you think you will have people in (how long is a piece of string!) and then pop to your local chamber of Commerce, to get an idea of what is acceptable in your area, before registration comes into play.

CdH is different to a Gite as you have seen, my reading of what rules I have been able to glean; is that if it is anything other than a very occasional activity and if you supply any or all of; bedding and clean the rooms, and give them breakfast, then you should be registered as a commercial activity. 

If you supply even a cup of tea or orange you need at least the petite licence, but these are easily obtained normally.  They are policed by the douanes through the gendarmerie and you may or may not get a visit once you have one, depends on your area.  I've never had an inspection, but the lady in the next commune has.  This also applies if you put a board up announcing your CdH.

You have to display your tarifs in the room and am fairly sure somewhere where they can be seen from outside. 

I'm unsure if the table and chair thing is an actual rule of CdH, but more what Gites de France suggest you might supply.  If you are going to have guests, think what would make you comfortable in a room, and I guess a couple of chairs and even a coffee table, would make it that bit better; unless there isn't room for them and then have a good think if the room is really right for CdH.

Buns

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Fiona,
You ask

- am I correct in my understanding that there is no need to register if this is not your main source of income i.e. irregular business?

Yes.

> if I am running an occasional chambre/table d'hotes do I still need the petit restaurant licence if I wish to serve drinks of almost any kind and if so does everyone here have one, how are they policed and how difficult is it to get one?

This isn't altogether clear. 99% of people think that the "Petit License de Restauration" is all you need. However, this _only_ covers drinks WITH MEALS. According to our local Douanes, who issue all such licenses, breakfast is not considered a meal and therefore you will need another license, called a "License de debit de boissons à consommer sur place de 1er catégorie". Both cost nothing and both are freely issued, so you should really go to your local Douanes and ask them which license THEY feel you will need. The advantage of the second license is that you can then serve soft drinks throughout the day. You will never get a license to serve beer etc except with meals.

- would I still need to display tariffs etc., outside, in our hallway/reception and in all rooms?

Yes. Both in the rooms and also somewhere visible from outside the house.

- how many of you have table and chair(s) in each bedroom and would a bedside table and chair comply?

A bedside table - a chevet - is not the sort of table people can write at. I don't think a table is obligatory, by the way, unless you want to join an organisation which insists on them! We supply them anyway.

At the moment we are just considering our options. We have a house that we intend to rent out in its entirety for the main season and are considering supplementing this with bed and breakfast/evening meal at other times. This would not be our main income but we would be declaring any revenue as income.

No problems as far as I can see. Ask at your local Mairie and see what they think about it.

Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

Go for it. It's hard work, but fun.

[winterbunny]

Just a couple of add ons.

The petite licence doesn't cover high proof alcohol drinks such as aperitifs and digestifs even if served with a meal.  The grande licence does, but you can still only serve drinks with food.

If you already have a registration you can if you want to just add on the CdH, even if you are with Chambres des Metiers you can have an add on with chambre de commerce.  Costs very little to do this.  If your present income doesn't fall within these schemes then you will have to register separately if your business falls within the category of not very occasional.

Buns

[mascamps.com]

I think as Buns is suggesting, you need to be registered "somewhere", to pay the taxes if nothing else. Over here you've basically four types of registeration to choose from:

1. employee or retired

2. artisan

3. businessman (commercant)

4. farmer

If you are doing the CdH alongside 2, 3 or 4 you can add it on to the registration. If you're an employee then you'd need to be registered again as one of the other three to cover the CdH activities.

If you don't register under one (or more) of the above you won't be able to get into the health system here (the E111 is only for visitors and shouldn't be used if you're actually living here).

 

Arnold

 

[Will]

"If you are doing the CdH alongside 2, 3 or 4 you can add it on to the registration. If you're an employee then you'd need to be registered again as one of the other three to cover the CdH activities."

That's not how it works in this particular area. No separate registration is required here to do a small amount of CdH while one is employed - though of course if you are employed full time or for set hours it can make things rather awkward if dealing with the normal tourist market.(It works fine with our market, as it is actually linked to the employment). I would think the key is probably keeping things in proportion - if CdH is a substantial part of your income then the situation will probably change. As an employee you are in the French health system anyway, and tax is taken care of, according to our tax office, by declaring the B&B income in the 'revenus industriels et commerciaux non professionels' section (Box OO for a micro-entreprise).

Not wishing to split hairs further, but I am registered in France and not under any of those four categories

[mascamps.com]

I thought you could get away without a separate registration too 'til our accountant pointed out that when she started a little (and it's very little) advisory service she had to register as an artisan because she was working as an employee and the new venture wasn't for her employer. Perhaps it's just her trying to be "whiter than white"? As a consequence of that she said that, although I'm registered as a commercant, I'd need to register separately as an artisan to offer website design services (and presumably also for ourinns.org / chambre-dhote.org which I've not told her about yet). OK, if I end up doing a lot of websites for people then fair enough but I'd be surprised if my totally laid back approach to marketing said services pulled in more than 1000€ in a year which would mean that the registration costs would more than likely exceed the income.

>Not wishing to split hairs further, but I am registered in France and not under any of those four categories

Split away... what category do you fall under?

 

Arnold

 

[Will]

Arnold - I'm a Profession Liberale, non-commerçant. But then I am a special case, nobody is 100% sure how to deal with me because, in the French regime, what I do is normally done only by salaried people, not on a freelance basis.

I think CdH is regarded as a bit of a special case too where the need for separate registration is concerned, thanks mainly, I would imagine, to its origins in giving farmers' wives a bit of (legal) income on the side. Our tax office seems to regard it in the same sort of light as renting out a furnished property rather than as an enterprise in its own right.

Nevertheless, it was the case, a year or two back, that registration was not necessary, neither were cotisations payable, if the income from a business was below a certain amount - I think 15% of the social security threshold. If you are talking about 1000€ or so, that would come well below that limit. I'm not aware of this having changed since I registered (which was, incidentally, done by ourselves direct with URSSAF at minimal cost rather than relying on accountants or other so-called experts who quoted well over 1000€).

 

[Coco]

Going back to Fiona's original question about whether the CdH needs to be registered if it is not the main source of income or if it is irregular, then certainly the answer in this area (Manche) is, as Bill says, that if it is not your main income, then it does not have to be registered.  However, being an irregular income does not necessarily mean the same thing.  When I spoke to the Chambres de metiers about this I was told that it didn't matter how irregular it was if it is the MAIN source of income it has to be registered.  If it isn't, it doesn't!  But you do have to pay cotisations of some kind.

Yes you do need a petit licence, no matter how infrequent the CdH, but this is free and very easy to obtain - probably the easiest bit of French bureacracy we have had to deal with, once we made the douanes aware that we do actually need one!

I think the table and chair bit is only necessary to qualify for Gites de France categories.  We do have bedside tables and lamps and one chair in each room and our local tourist offices have found these perfectly adquate but I believe GdF suggest one chair for each person in the room, and also a proper table.  Although, I have to say, we haven't always been supplied with these in GdF that we have stayed in, in the past.

[Jongleurs]

Right .... well thanks all for the information.

Our main and regular source of income is derived from a number of local rentals we bought through our SCI.  Our latest project is a property we are renovating for the holiday market but may also turn to b & b if the house rental is slow.  Just want to do everything 'by the book' hence the original question.

So, what do you reckon? Do I register or not?  My feeling is 'not' based on the main source of income thing but if anyone has had a different experience then ?........................

Will go sort out the petit licence anyway - doesn't seem difficult and if we've got it then no worries. The bedrooms will all have chairs and some kind of table anyway although not sure whether we'll register with Gites de France.  Will give that more thought.

Anyway, as said previously, thanks for your help.

Fiona

 

[mascamps.com]

I'd vote "no" for an additional registration because I think you could simply add the CdH activity to your existing registration for rental.

You still need the drinks license. GdF are a bit prescriptive in their requirements but in reality re the furnishing aspect, things like a bedside table and lamp are expected these days. There's a recent (last month or two) re room facilities which should give you quite a checklist of things to think of.

I think that most people here will agree that registering with GdF is the easiest way to fill your CdH.

 

Arnold