Emma and David<P>Emma and David <P><P>Montaigu<P> Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 I am going to be starting a B&B with my partner next year. My french is currently "Good" I have worked in france before briefly, his french is not so good! Although I can get along with people reasonably well, i do have to ask them to repeat themselves quite a bit.I am willing to go to a course, and I know David has to, but what level does my French need to be? I mean i can't imagine that i shall ever know every word!Did any of you start a ChD with not perfect French? Did you cope, or shall I start panicking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Panic I've met many people in the Uk who claimed to be 'fluent' and yet cannot get past 'holiday french'.I would not like like to start that kind of business unless I was fluent in French and the way things work over here, which given your recent postings you seem a little unfamiliar with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emma and David<P>Emma and David <P><P>Montaigu<P> Posted October 2, 2005 Author Share Posted October 2, 2005 Ha ha!Ok, I shall start panicking! That was probably the best response I could have had actually as it forces me to get in gear. I would say my french is much better than "holiday" level, but I understand what you mean about never being as good as you hope it might be.right, on with learningMerci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 I know what Viva means about people thinking they're fluent. My friends all told me I was fluent when I worried that mine wouldn't be good enough. And I worried for exactly that reason. I knew that my holiday French was very, very good but that for day to day living and working it was very limited and FAR from fluent. However, CdH is probably the easiest kind of work to get into if you're French isn't "perfect". My husband's was about O level standard (failed) and mine was good, but like you Emma, not fluent, when we started. My biggest problem was when I had telephone enquiries, as I think that is probably the hardest thing to cope with in a foreign language. Now even the phone isn't a problem. I just used to ask them to repeat the important bits, like phone numbers, email addresses and the actual dates they want to book. We only advertise on the internet, so even though they've contacted me by phone, they must have had access to a computer so are bound to have an email address. You can therefore ask them to confirm their booking by email and that way you know that you have the right email address for them and that you really did understand everything they asked for!We've been doing CdH for 3 seasons now and all of our French guests tell us (my husband as well) that we are fluent in French. Again, it's just an area of French, like your holiday French. They think we're really good but we both know that we're nowhere near fluent - we're now just good at CdH French. It's even made me start thinking that I could dredge up some of my O level German, brush up on the relevant words for CdH and start advertising that we are German speakers too! Bear in mind that you will get plenty of other (English-speaking) nationalities as well and presumably your names on any advertising are going to give away the fact that you are not French. Therefore, you're going to get the type of French who are going to be more tolerant of a foreigner anyway. Just make sure that you listen to French radio and get French TV and watch it in place of UK TV. At first it will all just be sounds and pictures. But then one day, without even noticing at first you will suddenly realise that you understood what they were talking about!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emma and David<P>Emma and David <P><P>Montaigu<P> Posted October 3, 2005 Author Share Posted October 3, 2005 Thanks for your reply.It is encouraging to know that other people have been in my place. I'm going to improve my French as much as possible but even so I know these things take time, and the longer I'm out here the better and easier it'll get.Great tip on getting people to confirm their booking by email.Was it yourself Coco, that had the GdF lady round recently, did you make a decision on them? How much do they charge for people booking at your through their website?Is it easy enough to get into other guide books (alistar Sawday, Michelin???!!)Thanks for your advice and support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 Not being able to speeek a word of French would not stop you from opening a CDH although it is very helpful to be able to speak some. I did not speak a word when I started but have taken lessons here on a one to one basis. I shall be attending a 6 week intense course this winter run at Montpellier university, it only cost 450€ excluding accomodations and we will be staying with a French family. To be honest it's the phone that scares the hell out of me, face to face is not so bad.Getting in to the books you mentioned needs nothing more than money. We contacted AS and asked about being put in (so much for recomendations) no proble the guy will stay with you for one night and wont expect to be charged for the 30€ for the bed and meal. If it's OK, which even a tent would be then hand over around £680 per year and you are in. You really need to be registered with one of the government run agencies first, either Gite de France or Clevances, which one will depend on your area although GDF give a lot more bang for the bucks in terms of advertising. Ypou can then start lookkng at other more commercial books. As I said in another thread, you pays your money and theres no such thing as a free meal. Theres no short cut to success but after a couple of years you will get a feel for where to spend your advertising money.One tip, from day one keep records of nationality and how the person found you this will help you develop your marketing structure over the years. Don't spend a fortune getting a website that really flash, keep it simple but pay to get yours at the top of the search engine lists. Having the best website in the world is worth nothing if nobody can find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 We contacted AS and asked about being put in (so much for recomendations) no proble the guy will stay with you for one night and wont expect to be charged for the 30€ for the bed and meal. If it's OK, which even a tent would be then hand over around £680 per year and you are in. Have you actually tried it yet though Chris? We contacted them in our first year and just got a standard email saying they would get back to us, they didn't. Tried every 6 months for 18months with the same standard reply. I then got a couple of friends to write in recommendations for me and almost immediately AS contacted me and asked if I would like to fill out their relevant forms and would I let the man stay for 25€ a night. No problem I said; we'll be in touch between March and October they said; well, I suppose we've still got another 3 weeks to go!!! Also, the amount you pay is like GdF, it depends on how many rooms you have available.Emma, no I decided not to go with GdF because the lady was only prepared to give me two epis. When I asked how I could get 3 she told me it would be impossible for me to ever get 3 because my rooms aren't big enough. I felt that because I currently charge towards the top end of the 3 epi ratings in this area I was not happy being put in at a 2 epi (who around here charge between 25-35€ per night) as it could do me more harm than good to be charging25-30€ more than those with a similar rating to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Coco - Thats right 25€ for the night and a meal with wine!!!!!! for 5€ and this was from the guy that was coming to inspect us in two weeks time. If I said OK then I would definatly get the visit. I told him that I was not a charity but wondered if Pat and I could get a job inspecting for them during during the winter as judging by his attitude it's not exactly hard work. I'm thinking free board and meals all through the winter in nice warm accomodation, think of the money I would save, a nice little earner. So I am afraid I told them to stuff it.As a side issue nobody recomended us I just used the address from the front of the book and got some forms to fill in (in French if memory serves me right). It's just a gimmick but people seem to think they are special if the get in which after talking to somebody who has used them they are not. I would rather spend my money on something that gets results. As for AS he has nothing to do with at all now it's all run by the publishing house. I think he gets some money for every copy sold as his name is on it and who is he anyway? My tip, for what it's worth, stick to what you know and that works, I think it was Miki that told me that and he hasn't been wrong so far (well for me anyway). If he (Miki) wrote a book about seting up a B&B I would buy it, much better investment than being in some of these 'special' books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineS2 Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Hello Chambres d'Hoters from a Gite Owner! May I post in your forum?Apologies if I am a little off-topic here, but I was interested to hear your various views regarding Alastair Sawday's.We applied last year, and they kept promising to visit our gite before April which was their cut-off date for the next issue. I had to keep pestering them and they eventually came at the very last minute.The inspector stayed with us for the whole afternoon. We didn't have to pay her, but then again she didn't actually stay the night (I suppose it must be different for gites rather than CdH). But I have to say that the inspection was very thorough, and at no point did I get the impression that "even a tent would be OK". She told me that they had over 1,000 applications for the French Holiday Homes book, and that only about 300 get in.Anyway, we were thrilled to be "accepted" and we are looking forward to being in the guide which is about to be published at the end of October.Also, I don't know whether the CdH guide is more expensive to be in, but the cost for the Holiday Homes guide is nowhere near £680! We paid £344 inc VAT for being in the book and on their website for TWO years - which is less than I am paying for Holiday-Rentals.com. For that you get a whole page in the book, with 2 good-sized photos and some very whimsical flowery prose about your house (it's interesting to read someone else's viewpoint about your property!). You also get to be on the website, with full search facilities and a link to your own website (which H-R doesn't allow much to my disgust!).Anyway, what does it matter if Mr Sawday himself does not do the inspections any more? The important thing is that the guide is well respected and people do use it - I have a number of friends who always book all their accommodation from these books and swear by them, although I must say that one of them was a little taken aback to hear that you had to pay to be included. She made some grumbling noises about feeling a little cheated, but I then asked her whether she had ever been disappointed with any of the places she had stayed at and she had to admit that no she hadn't.So, I am hoping that being in the guide will be a positive thing for us in the coming months... Will keep you posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owens88 Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 It really does matter what enquiries it generates. Please do tell.John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineS2 Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 [quote]It really does matter what enquiries it generates. Please do tell. John[/quote]It may be difficult to tell exactly how many enquiries it generates. I will only know for sure if people enquire and say that they found us in the book. But I am also hoping that by being able to mention Sawday's on our website, it might sway someone's decision who may have seen our ad on VisitFrance or HolidayRentals - they may not have bought the AS book or visited the AS website, but the fact that we have been recommended by AS may help them to narrow down their search and contact us rather than one of our competitors. That is what I am hoping anyway! Maybe I am being naive.Only time will tell... (New guide and website not out until end of Oct) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 I think there is a thing about units, a gite is a unit and a room in a B&B is a unit and you are charged by the unit if you see what I mean.A couple of thoughts; Being in a book and website that is aimed at only the English speaking nations for the price you have paid is not very good value for money, in my opinion. The reason I say this is because the golden rule of advertising is returns on money spent and maximum exposure. Now it's a little difficult to predict the actual returns but raising the odds can be done by some basic homework.If, for example, one enters Bed & Breakfast France the AS website comes up at the top of the list. However, and there always is one, people are not actually likely to type that in. Statistics actually indicate that people will type in B&B (or if posh Chambres D'Hôte) followed by the area or nearest town to where they want to stay; for example B&B Aude. In which case you won't see a sniff of the AS site till well down the pages. There is another thing to keep in mind that with the internet, people will typically search but seldom look past the forth page of results so any person with a website will want to be in those first four, ideally on the first page if at all possible.Limiting your self to just English speaking nations is not a good idea. Most of the better organisations print and publish their books or supply information to publishers in many countries. You also want to be in books and on websites in the country you are working in, in this case France. I took my £600 to the BNB organisation which gets me in to the Thomas Cook book (UK), Petit Fluté (France), Gut & Peiswert (Germany) and Gremese Bed and Breakfast (Italy). We are also on the respective websites in each country and some flash phone system which I am unsure about but am told is quite good all for £600 for 3 years. We decided to go with Gites de France and this likewise supplies Gite and B&B details to many organisations throughout the world including for example the AA book of B&B's in France. The other issue with books is that you can't think "great we are in the book they should be queuing at the door next year" because it does not quite work that way. Although many people will buy the book next year there are at least 5 times as many who have older books which they still use which you of course won't be in. It's the same for me with the publications I mentioned. The AS book costs £14.99 (that’s our 2001 version), the Thomas Cook one £12.99 (2004 version) which means the are less likely to buy a new one every year. As you can see being rather tight myself I still use the 2001 AS book which means I would not know you exist. Mind you it does have the opposite effect in as much as you pay for two years entry and may well be getting people turn up with a book in five years time with you in it.We actually had quite good results from Living France and French Connections even though like quite a few others I was bitching and moaning about lack of enquiries at the beginning of the year and wondering if I had wasted my money. At the end of the year it seems they brought in reasonable business, not a lot but still worth investing in again next year.As I said in another thread it is so important to keep good records of nationalities and where you get your business from although it's not till about three years that you start to get any patterns. Good booking software that monitors this (and more) is very important and whilst it can cost around £200 to get started it's worth every penny.Anyway, good luck to you all next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Thanks for your kind words Chris, cheque may be slow but it will arrive Some people may remember that I argued against how useful A.S actually was some time ago ? I was being told on here that it was by recommendation only but I knew, that for some time, that man had long been accepting payments for entry in to his B&B book. A.S felt it rather more exclusive to let the “snobbier” (lack of another suitable word but damned close to what I mean !!) clients believe this still to be true. We did ask some years ago to join, (but it was a case of promises and none arrival although they said they had called ) after meeting a person we met on our arrival up here in Brittany, that they were getting good client numbers through this book. Later on we found out they had just one bedroom and were quite, no very, eccentric. This coupled with quirkiness and “showing difference to the norm” was just what A.S wanted his “early invited members” to appear. As in nearly all cases, it was then to turn in to a financially led company and now A.S to my mid offers poor value. We know of no one that says it really does pay off for them, that to be fair does not mean it cannot for anyone as for one, those people are now not with them, so my view has to be based on what was.As Chris said, their “net” presence is pretty low (not sure that punching in Bed & Breakfast France puts them top, does it Chris ?) and the number of books now sold under their A.S umbrella makes me wonder if one could get lost in the maze of titles available ? And again as Chris said (he learns quick that lad !), being in a book aimed at those that speak English, is not very good marketing.One little point here, Bed & Breakfast France, having a say in more brochures these days, has made them pretty slow with payments made through many bookings made through their reservation system. (or so they say !) We are waiting for bookings to be paid from August clients and have been told, “very soon now”!! We were warned a couple of months ago, that bookings were high and so payments would be slow. Mmmmm……………Luckily we do not get that many through the central system, so no big deal.Guide books will kick in, eventually but maybe too late for you to benefit in the short term but, I have to be honest here, even when it does get enough copies sold, with you actually within, A.S will in no way be anywhere near good enough, to even offer you a paltry living. Guide books can only ever be part of the whole and not that good a revenue on their own.I guess if you look at it all logically, you do need a super duper system that will let you know exactly where all guests came from, both country and advertising, how many guests were turned away but would have booked had you not been full an where they saw you, what sites gave you most hits, which sites gave you most bookings and how many bookings came through your website itself and where did they find it. Now I could go on and on (please don’t, I hear !!) but you get my point I'm sure.The other most important thing that would come out of that sort of exercise, would be just how much you could cut back and still gain the same revenue from less advertising and the associated costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 I actually did some search's in google.co.uk which is where I got my results from"I guess if you look at it all logically, you do need a super duper system that will let you know exactly where all guests came from, both country and advertising, how many guests were turned away but would have booked had you not been full an where they saw you, what sites gave you most hits, which sites gave you most bookings and how many bookings came through your website itself and where did they find it. Now I could go on and on (please don’t, I hear !!) but you get my point I'm sure."I think this is what people call market research although I am more techie than sales and marketing.It's very important to select your 'tools' carefully when you start up, I tried a few software packages that gave free trials some cost thousands and one or two were under £100. The product I bought was £199 and gave information on nationality and booking source from which stats can be produced. Of course it does far more than that including the automatic generation of booking confirmation and invoice production in any language you like. People find it rather pleasing to get their invoices in their native language I find.A good hosting company is also important for your website. My one shows and produces statistics on how people got to my site and does actually make interesting reading at the end of the year because people find our site through other sites and this feature tells me which ones. Not all hosting companies give this information.Where to get your website listed is another interesting point. My French advertising on the net was done by entering Chambres D'Höte followed by different places, town names and regions near me. You start to see pattern like one company keeps appearing always on the first or second page, they are the ones you use. Using different countries google search engines like google.de etc using the same search criteria gives you an idea of whom to advertise with there. An evening (or two) punting around the internet can be very profitable in working out the best advertisers. Don't forget you have to register your website with the same search engine in each individual country i.e. google .fr, google.es etc.I start my research about this time of year, blowing out some advertisers and taking on new ones. Getting your message out is not a thing you do once and forget, you need to keep on top of it to get the best results. You can also 'lift' other peoples metatags of their private websites if they get higher rankings in google than you and copy them in to your website. Setting up metatags to tell crawlers what to do and which pages to index and getting your description metatag correct (and more) also helps, something web designers don't normally do this (good ones do I know).How many people have you turned away because you are full? well it's easy with email, you just create a folder and put them in there. We actually create a folder for each year where we keep a simple set of sub folders to track emails through the system. Phone calls are a bit more interesting. As a backup we have a perpetual wall planner that is always up to date with bookings (just in case we can't get to the computer quick enough) I added a white board by the side this year and carry out simple bar counting on calls where we are full and how they got our number, nice and simple.I am not a great admin person but after a while you realise there is some information you really must keep but it must be simple to use (Mrs Q does not do complicated). It takes me about 3 hours to do my end of year report which condenses all this information down to two A4 pages which includes our balance sheet. From this we can see where we are going wrong and where we have got things right.Get a good, simple, accounting package, nothing flash, I use an old copy of Microsoft Money 2001. Everything we spend and recieve for the B&B comes out of one separate bank account so 30 minutes a month gets all the figures punched in and then I have a profit and loss printout both monthly and yearly. Boy are they a good laugh at the end of the year.It probably sounds complicated but it is not really and does not take much time. I actually think you really have to do this if you are running a business because you have to know how it's operating and running a B&B is no different.Oh I forgot before I go (great I hear) don't forget to have a advertising/marketing budget, very important as is sticking to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Only one problem Chris, as I said before, yes it's easy to put them in a folder called whatever, we leave them all in Enquiries and a folder called Reservations is just that (neither Mr or Mrs Miki do techie either, well not well anyway, sufficient, we like to call it), anyway I digress, you will still not know, however they word their enquiry, as sufficient evidence of a lost client. It's a numbers game really, the more you lose out with a certain company, the more you might think, well if I cancel the other one that gets a few more than this one but in far fewer enquiries, perhaps it might be wise to stop the site that looks like the good one and go with the one that gets more enquiries but somehow we cannot fill thie requests. Far fetched, well possibly (Arnold take note ) and one would need some gumption to do what I have said but it is as I said, difficult to know if you have lost just an enquiry or an actual reservation.Oh what fun eh.....Bottom line for most of us perhaps ? Simply enough to live on, enough to have the luxuries the hard work deserves, a nice holiday**, nice things and lots of what you want (many varied I guess) !If none of that was realised within a few years, then I am not sure we would have stayed, well we would have been skint I guess !**(What's a flipping holiday !)Still cannot find A.S on front page of google UK, might simply have fallen off perhaps ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Well Miki, thats as clear as mud but I think I understand where you are coming from. Sure you can't 'measure' everything but keeping stats over a few years a pattern will develop. It might mean you drop one company and pick it up again later. You can't even make a judgment during the year, look how much of a slagging off VF and FC got at the beginning of the year by loads of us here including me yet we did get business but latter on. 'Seasons' change as well so you can't predict as I have found and thats in just three years trading. All you can do is collect as much info as you can and make an educated guess at the end of the year. I think what you were saying is, and I agree, is there is no hard and fast method and some information you will never know. It's what we used to call flying by the seat of your pants.Just tried the old search again on both bed & breakfast france and bed and breakfast france in google. It shows just how fickle the internet is because as you rightly said not on the front page now demoted to first one on second page and there is only one entry. No sight of them on regions at all i.e. bed and breakfast aude for example. I see the old favourites are still on the first page though.Whats a holiday? Come on Miki all B&B owners have been on holiday since the day they started you know that, stick a sign up and collect the money on the way out, nice little earner B&B's you know . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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