Registration? The Catch!!

[Gastines]

Please correct me if I'm wrong and I often am!! I have now been told by a Notaire, if you register your house/home as a Chambre d'hote, and keep everything legal. Pay your dues etc etc, you are liable to pay 27% on the increase on the value of your property, when you sell. Not on the total profit, it is apportioned between your living accomodation and the area you let. In our case this equals about 2 years takings. It seems a penalty for trying to do things above board!! When I said this to the Notaire he advised de-registering for a clear year before selling!!!

Seems an odd way to encourage people to go into business [ no matter how small ]I did point out that the income was only pocket money but this didn't alter the rules.

It seems in some Depts. it is not necessary to register if you have 4 rooms or less, some depts not required at all, it all seems to depend on where you live and how keen your Notaire is and who's side he's on.

Anyone else come up against this?

May I point out that this applies to your main home,and perhaps it is brought about by all the people doing everything on the fiddle.

Regards.Nr.St.Malo

[Gastines]

I was hoping for some feedback on the subject!! Is the info correct or just this Notaires opinion? Has anyone else come up against this? Also would like to know about the 4 rooms, just hearsay?, or does it matter which Dept you are in?

Regards.Nr.St.Malo

[Miki]

Probably by registering yourselves at the C de Com, it of course made you a legally registered business that meant your rooms were your income, do you also pay Taxe Professionelle ?

Most CdH are not businesses, as I said once before, us Brits and some others, inc French, have taken this type of trade in to a new area, an area that can give many a good living, when of course it was only meant as an add on to an agricole or similar way of life. So yes, by registering there is a chance that you will pay CGT, like I believe you would an hotel.

You must argue as to your personal needs regarding what rooms were private to you and how many rooms constituted your business.

Yes, certainly is some deots, it is only seen as a "sideline" but recent rules state along these lines, if it is your only salary, then it wil be seen as a commerce. Now that is the rough guide and I do know that some dept have taken that guide on board. I know we spoke of this last year and how the Saint Malo Ch de Com told you (and the impôts if I remember rightly ?) that it was the regs that you joined. I told you then that many depts would see 4 or 5 rooms would not be seen as a pro affair, that least said best treated and sorry (and I truly mean that)I really wish you had done as many others do and just inform the tax office and gone to CPAM to declare your income and thus get social security cover through CMU but that is in the past.

So to answer your question, yes different dept do things differently, no surprise there then, anoying for some but pretty good for others. I really don't think those on the black, as you put it, having any bearing on this, you are simply being seen as a small hotel to my mind.

I will ask a friendly immo with the ear of a notaire and see what they think.

In the meantime, maybe it is easier to think that a profit is a profit and perhaps it might not be as bad as you think but any tax is a b****d, I will swap our annual taxe hab and Fonciere with you though !

[Gastines]

Add on to your reply Miki. Met some people today in Normandie, but only about 20kms from us. They have Chambre D'Hotes reg with Mairie and Tourist office only. No need to register with C.dC. according to tourist office? When we went to tourist office in St.Malo and said we were reg with C d C etc.etc. they said they only advertise people who were with Gite d'France or Clevacances.Obviously,rules aren't rules in some parts!! I do intend to pursue this a bit further, as it seems a bit of a heavy penalty for the income. I may add that several of our French neighbours that we pass our excess onto, don't seem to see the need to reg with anyone.

Our Mairie ,when asked if we need to reg with the C.d C. said NO. The H.d I. said Yes.!!

Anyway as someone said,"Onward and Upward".or in my case "As one door closes, another one shuts".

Regards.Nr.St.Malo.

[mascamps.com]

One potential way around it (which we may adopt in due course) is to convert yourself into an agricultural business before selling. As everywhere, they pay you to do things, pay you not to do things and let you avoid a whole lot of tax if you're a "farmer".

I don't know if the amount of ground entailed applies nationally, but in our case it's supposed to be 3ha. Since we bought what was the original farmhouse and it's on about 2ha of ground we supposedly only need to buy another hectare (say 2 to be safe) and start growing grapes to do this. Grand total outlay for the land is around 5000€ I think.

The main reason we didn't do this at the off was that we knew diddly about producing wine but that doesn't seem to have stopped a number of new arrivals so, once we get our heads above water with the general running of this place, look out for Chateau Stewart arriving in a supermarket near you

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

I would love a Euro for every trick that has been proposed to me to get "cheap deals", social security cotisations etc by going along the vignoble/farmer/agricole track etc.

When we bought our place in the Doo Don, we had one couple that came to see us who said we need so many sheep and so many this and so many that and we could then go along the "à la ferme" route, save plenty and for pennies etc etc,. We checked it out and to be honest, we would not have been that legal and would have been spotted a mile off by the tax people.

If you have a commercial business, it is very hard then, to change it to looking amateur, unless you really take it right down and diminish what you have in to what would be totally acceptable to the tax man as a going concern with vines, animals etc. What you gonna say the hotel is, cattlesheds

[Gastines]

We have all heard about ,"pig/tree/field etc", but hearsay is worth nothing.I expect we could all write a book about all the fiddles/dodges etc we have heard about.The main point of my original post was that it seems a bit heavy handed to penalize people for trying to play it straight.I note the man of the moment D.Villepin, is trying to encourage new ventures?I feel a letter coming on!!

Regards.Nr.St.Malo.

P.S. On a lighter note.If they have been watching the snail farm duo,the pair in Slovakia and the 2 bright boys in Greece, I'm not surprised that they want to get a lump back!! Yes, unfortunately,we, have watched them.

[Gastines]

Still wondering if anymember has sold a chambre de commerce registered B&B and actually come up against this tax?After the Notaire suggested we deregister and wait for a year before selling, we asked if he could ensure that no tax was payable.He hasn't come back to us with the definative answer.

One point that did occur.Now that we have ceased trading and the signs are down,if we sold via another Notaire how would they know?

The only fact that has come out of my enquiries, via various sites and persons, is that no one seems sure of the facts.

Regards.Nr.St.Malo.

[Macker]

You're right, no-one is sure of the facts, even the French. In our case we asked the Mayor what the procedure was to register and he said 'Not necessary' The bank, on the other hand was horrified that we were not registered as a CdH business even though I have a seperate registered business but our accountant said it didn't matter so long as we declared all our income under my business umbrella. So if they can't agree what chance us? In your case I would suggest that you certainly wouldn't have to pay CGT unless you were selling the business as a 'going concern' which might effectively increase the value of the property more than it would normally increase, however, if you have ceased trading I don't see how this could possibly be applied as it can add no value to the property.