Do I charge half or full amount?

[Coco]

Another one of those dilemmas.  We have a couple staying with us at the moment who are renovating a barn closeby.  They have one of our rooms for ten nights.  The husband's parents have another room for 4 nights and the builder has our other room for 5 nights.  This couple were originally due out for a weekend at August bank holiday and cancelled at short notice because he is a policeman and involved in the current terrorist investigations (I can't say any more or I would have to kill you all).  Anyway, he had already paid a 50% deposit for that weekend, which he naturally lost.  Last night he got a call from his boss to say that he can go back on the same job again from this Thursday (it's his choice but it means he earns shedloads of overtime) and he is umming and ahhing over whether to cut his stay short by 4 nights and earn megabucks, or to stay and get more work done on the barn.  If he decides to go home do I just charge him the 50% deposit he has paid on the room or the full amount?

At first I thought it was simple and I would just charge the deposit; but having thought about it, no one is insisting he goes back - it's his choice, so my immediate reaction is that if it is his choice then I shouldn't lose out and he should pay the full amount for the 4 nights.  The trouble is, I know they intend to come back at least a couple more times over the course of the autumn (off-peak bookings) and might I cook my goose by charging the full amount.  However, what's to say that the same thing won't happen on those occasions too!  And can I really afford to subsidise the British police force?

Any thoughts welcome.

[Missy]

[quote user="St Amour"]....... And can I really afford to subsidise the British police force?

Any thoughts welcome.

[/quote]

 

You've answered yourself, quite apart from the fact that you may have had to refuse bookings for the date he was originally coming and now is not, and now you have empty rooms....

But then do you have concise rules regarding bookings and cancellations which they were able to read and acknowledge on their invoices or whatever mail you engaged with them over this....

[pouyade]

I suggest you stick to the rules as you published them, and do whatever you would do for a.n. other customer. Give him an official letter explaining the charging regime and detailing what he has 'lost' because if he has been recalled to duty he can use it to claim reasonable costs. If they don't pay, then that's his issue, not yours.

Pouyade - who has some inside knowledge of the issues!!

 

[zeb]

Just tell them that unless you can get a booking for those four nights, you'll have to charge them, and I'm sure they will expect to pay. You can always give them a discount, or a free night or something, on their next definite booking. After all, as you say it is their choice, and, you have a business to run.

Sorry S, I'm not in your line of trade but, unless it was a life or death situation (which should be covered by insurance), I would expect to pay.

Word of advice: never become too friendly with your guests/customers etc. We've found that sometimes business and pleasure don't always mix.

[Russethouse]

Its up to him to factor in the money he will have to pay you, when he makes his decision, after all, will he be sending you, the 'shed loads' of money ?

[Cassis]

If you can't rebook and it's written in your terms that cancellations are payable in full in these circs, then charge the full whack - otherwise you're out of pocket if he's dropping you to make 'shedloads of money'.  No grounds for complaint if all you're doing is keeping to your terms and conditions.

[Miki]

No need to say what we would do.

Put the boot on the foot and what they would say if you said, sorry we

are off on holiday tomorrow, forgot to tell you, sorry out you go!

A reservation is a reservation, We are small B&B's not the Majestic

in Cannes with rooms a plenty............. We have a viticulteur and

his wife here at the moment, who told us yesterday that their son had

called and said that they were to start the vendage at their place by

this weekend.

I explained the situation, he said no need to, he realised he had

booked for 7 nights and now he had renegaded on that and would expecxt

to pay. I simply said (like I always do) that if we get anyone take the

room in the next few days we will reimbourse them. Sometimes we do at

other times we don't...let's just say it is a bonus, even a reward for

us, for any bad guests we might get !!

Any decent guests will realise, it is just about explaining it all

quite firmly and then mention the possibility of a remboursement, less

of course your expenses. Some patrons charge as much as 25% or indeed

the full amount [;-)]

[Quillan]

The official answer may lie here (hope this is thre right bit), I have not put a translated version becuase that can be left to personal interpretation.:

Qu’advient il de ce versement si la réservation est annulée ?

Par le locataire :

• S'il s'agit d'arrhes, le locataire doit abandonner la somme versée.

 

• S'il s'agit d'un acompte, le locataire reste redevable de la totalité de la location, sauf en cas de force majeure.

 

Par le loueur ? :

• S'il s'agit d'arrhes, le loueur doit restituer le double du montant perçu.

 

• S'il s'agit d'un acompte, le loueur doit restituer le montant perçu et risque d'être contraint à une indemnisation du préjudice.

 

Source.: Booklet called  Les Locations Saisonnières en Meubles issued by Ministère de l’économique des finances et de l’industrie - dated Avril 2006

[Cassis]

Does the booklet say these ALWAYS have to be the terms, or is this just the default if no other terms are stated? 

[Miki]

What personal translation ? All of it it can only read one way......!!!!!!!!!

This looks to be more for Gîtes to be honest but the principle remains as for CdH's. The G de Fr regs are very

differently worded for CdH's and they CAN BE translated in a couple of

ways, as Ian and I last year,(year before ?) showed folks.

This is a different case for sure, this a contract between Brits and

the guest has to take the word of Coco for what the regs are. As far as

G de Fr, who after all are the ones the rules come from, would allow

you to charge if no good reason could be proved for their early

departure.

Cassis, so the default is with your regs that you have from G de Fr.

 

[Deimos]

I think when you said that "he has the choice" indicating his return is not obligatory/mandatory. Similarly, it appears his choice is influenced (in a major way) by the large amounts of money he will earn should he return.

Thus, if he returns you will be letting him off paying the bill he is due, plus he will be earning vast sums of money as well - everything rosy for him and you would be losing out. I have no idea about rules, contracts, terms and conditions but, provided they say you can charge (which others seem to think they do) then I would certainly charge full amount. No reason on earth why you should subsidise him so he can earn even more overtime.

If he is being called-back (mandatory) then is certainly used to be the case that the civil service cover any cancellation costs (even the full holiday cost if that is required). On more than one occasion I have a QUANGO I worked for (years ago) cancel my holidays and they always paid the unrecoverable monies I had paid (i.e. I was not out of pocket). They never argued about it, never argued with those the booking was with, never required loads of paperwork - they just paid. Don't know if things are tighter these days.

Getting people to come back and re-book is great but how much can you accept this costing them. Most reasonable people would not expect to get money off cancelling part way through a holiday when it was their choice. If they are reasonable people and they like your place then they will return. If they are not reasonable people then do you want them to return (and how much will you pay them to come back ?)

My opinion anyway.

Ian

[Coco]

Looks like we won't have the problem now.  Wife has just come in and said that as they have a long trailer with them as well, there are no ferry spaces available to get them home in time for him to start the job.

Whilst I feel that if people "choose" to leave early, and not because they are unhappy with our B&B, that we should not be the losers due to their fickleness but this is not the first time this situation has arisen.  We had some French here last year who had booked for 5 nights but because it was raining decided to go home after 3 (50% deposit covered 2 and a half days, so they felt they only had half a day's balance to pay).  I think for the new year I shall make it clear that not only is the 50% deposit non-refundable but that once guests have arrived, if they choose to leave early then they will have to pay the full balance, unless I can relet the room at short notice.

 

[Cassis]

Our terms say the full amount is payable if the room is cancelled less than a week before the arrival date, unless we can relet.  50% payable up to 2 weeks notice.  No penalty if we get over 2 weeks notice (cos we reckon we can almost always relet).  Is this too soft?

Never had an early leaver but maybe I should think about specifically writing that in as well!

Can you point me in the right direction for the GdF regs, Miki?  If I grope around on their crap website will I eventually stumble over it?  And can I override them with my own terms, do you know?

[Miki]

Cassis, 

I will look again later but the adobe icon for the regs etc seems to have gone walkabout !!

I have my original forms from our joining which gave us all the rules

and regs etc. In there it says that any guest cancelling and in

chronological order, what the guests must pay. It is pretty flexible

but let's say, some guests think it means the day before is sufficient

but when read again it infers that the guest must pay for any period

they reserved if later than a week before. Some people read oit as 24

hours before even 7 p.m the night before. I spoke with a chap on here,

who was on the board for his regional G de Fr about it all and we both

believed we would be correct to charge someone who was on site but

wanted to leave early, even if it was just a few days in to a week or

longer stay. We would offer remmboursement for days refilled but that

was it.

Any clients booking through G de Fr would expect themselves to be

booking under their regulations, so any other ones made, would conflict

with those. I think G de Fr regs should suit you OK though.

I think the site is very good in what it offers, it is getting around

it that causes the problems, far better to go to your local regions

site.

With us it is:   http://www.gitesdefrance35.com 

[Cassis]

You're right, it's the navigation I have issues with.  If you're not used to it it's a bit hard to spot where to click for what you want!

Funny, I told someone that the GdF regs on room sizes and the checklist for ratings were there on Adobe and blow me if next time I looked they hadn't disappeared, too!

Must go, Outlaws are emerging from early evening slumber and need feeding.

[Quillan]

In our 'pack' that we recieved at the begining of the season we had two sets of contracts, one for gites and one for Chambres d'hôte along with an explination of how to use the contracts part of which states.:

LE conTRAT. LA remise DE note

 

Le contrat de location doit être écrit.

 

Toute offre ou contrat de location saisonnière doit revêtir la forme écrite et contenir I'indication du prix demande ainsi qu'un état descriptif des lieux (article L.324-2 du code du tourisme).

 

La remise d'une note est obligatoire lorsque votre activité de location est habituelle ou régulière.

 

Vous devez établir une note datée en double exemplaire mentionnant, vos nom et adresse, le nom et I'adresse du locataire, I'adresse du bien loue, sa nature, la durée de la location, et le prix TIC acquitte par votre client.

 

L'original de la note est remis au locataire a réception du paiement et vous devez conserver le double pendant deux ans.

 

Attention

 

I'absence de remise ou de conservation de note est passible d'une amende pouvant atteindre 15 000 €.

(Article L.312-3 du code du tourisme)

 

I don't know if this is a regional thing, getting these contracts and all this information or not, but it would appear that you are obliged by law to issue a contract even if the person stays for one night. I am just wondering if that in the 'real world' people actually issue these contracts to every person that stays with them or if it's more the norm to issue them for people that are staying say 4 days or longer. These contracts have almost the identical wording with regards to cancellations as the one I posted earlier.

[Anton Redman]

Sorry I think everybody who is looking at the legal detail is missing the basic point.

Do you want him back. If you do a good deal with him now will he come back at short notice short notice in March. Will his mates come over ?

For me the choices are do him for the maximum amount now or ask him if he is coming back and what he thinks is fair . Have a look at the average cost of finding a guest versus how much you make a visit. 

 

[Cassis]

[quote user="Quillan"]

 

I don't know if this is a regional thing, getting these contracts and all this information or not, but it would appear that you are obliged by law to issue a contract even if the person stays for one night. I am just wondering if that in the 'real world' people actually issue these contracts to every person that stays with them or if it's more the norm to issue them for people that are staying say 4 days or longer. These contracts have almost the identical wording with regards to cancellations as the one I posted earlier.

[/quote]

No idea, Quillan, but we don't get them.  Sounds like another load of paperwork for no good reason.

[Cassis]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]

For me the choices are do him for the maximum amount now or ask him if he is coming back and what he thinks is fair . Have a look at the average cost of finding a guest versus how much you make a visit. 

[/quote]

Don't forget to factor in the time spent faffing about on the forum. [:D]

[Miki]

We do not get anything like that anymore as for the greater part, we

now get all notices of changes and new regs/rules etc by email in our

own espace membres on the regional G deFr  website.

What is shown in Quillans post are general tourism regulations from on high

but as ever, in unison with G de Fr. It also states that one must make

a note on each facture informing the guests that TVA is not shown as

the patron is not registered for such under his tax system. Can't

remember the exact words but the rubber stamp wore out and I am now

wondering whether to bother getting a new one, alhough they were once

a pretty standard issue at Office Depot.

Offering a facture is very important, as is guarding carbon reciepts.

There are authorities (Direction Départementale de la Concurrence etc

etc) who can ask to see them at anytime and also to see that ones

prices are in position as per the regs (ALL B&B's as well) at the

entrance, inside the entrance door and behind the bedroom door, plus

they will also check pools, outside playgrounds, swings etc and a host

of other things.......

As far as offering those contracts that G de Fr show you, no one i know

hardly knows about them. thye are alot of work for nothing, as the

guests couldn'r care less for them EXCEPT the anorakal Cd'Hôter...oh

yes, we have them in our misdt. they know exactly what breakfast should

be, that the owner must sit with them at dinner, even at breakfast. Is

the jam homemade, do you keep chickens, does Madame get the bread just

before the meals, do you this, do you that and on and on. They are rare

thankfully but if anyone has not had the joy of one yet, don't despair,

it's a case of diminishing returns...one day....one day !!

[Cassis]

Hmmm.  We give a facture (carbon kept) if it is asked for.  We have to OFFER them as well?  Who enforces that and how? We have prices on the inside room doors.  I've never seen any more in any of the French-run GdF B&Bs we stay in.  Is it only some of the Brits who are obsessed with obeying every detail of the crackpot regs?  I've had a drink.  Outlaws in bed.

[Quillan]

Sometimes  think the regs/laws of one group don't always balance with those of another. One group says to produce a bill and keep a copy for X years and another for Y years. If you are registered under the Micro BIC system I believe you have to keep your bills/invoices for 5 years.

Perhaps when you are new to an organisation like GDF you tend to follow the rules from day one. As time goes on perhaps you don't bother with some of them. Personally I think anything that can cost you money one way or another (fines, lack of trade etc) is worth keeping to. We always produce factures/bills and keep a copy of every one both in hard copy and on our computer, we have a price list at the gate and in each room but have no space in the hall so that ones 'keeps falling down' which in my mind is no great sin. In our region we also have to display the certificate for the grading in each room, we get individual ones with the specific room name on them. I am told that the latter is because some people have five rooms, get one graded and imply that all the rooms are graded the same.

Anyway my point in the previous post was that if you do always issue a contract then your terms and conditions MUST contain your cancelation policy written around whatever the French law/rules are and thats what you should stick to. We had a French guest who cancelled because his wife was taken to hospital. Thats not his fault so we offered a refund which he refused. If he came again then as we have a record we would deduct the deposit from his bill. If he didn't have a good reason we would not give any refund.

[Coco]

[quote user="Quillan"]

We had a French guest who cancelled because his wife was taken to hospital. Thats not his fault so we offered a refund which he refused. If he came again then as we have a record we would deduct the deposit from his bill. If he didn't have a good reason we would not give any refund.

[/quote]

Depends on how close to coming he was and whether it was high or low season surely?  Are you likely to have lost other custom through it or would the room have stood empty anyway?  These are all the points I would take into account.  No it's not his fault, but it's not yours either!  We had an American couple book one of our rooms for 2 nights in the Spring.  I didn't take a deposit (exchange charges etc) but asked them to reconfirm that they would be coming within a week of due arrival date.  She did this from Paris 5 days before said date.  The day before she sent another email saying that she had had a miscarriage and was returning straight home to the States.  I was very dubious as to whether this was true or not - having had a miscarriage would she then have bothered to go out and find an internet café to contact me?  I somehow doubt it.  Had her husband sent an email or phoned from their Paris hotel (or the hospital) or had she phoned I would have been more inclined to believe the story.  However, I'm not that callous, and JUST IN CASE it was true I didn't bother to pester her but to be quite honest I think it was the classic case of suddenly realising just how far Normandy is from Paris or that they had too many other things they wanted to do in Paris and didn't have time to fit us in.  If her holiday had been cut short by such a sad incident I'm sure she would have been covered by holiday insurance, so why should I lose out?  But I did and I could have let the room to other people had the cancellation not been at such short notice.

[andyh4]

Just to reinforce the points made by others, it is worth considering that many employers will reimberce their employees for additional or "lost opportunity" costs when they call them back from leave.  I am pretty certain this applies to the police as well, so it may well be no skin off your customer's nose to give nothing back.

 

 

[Miki]

[quote user="Cassis"]Hmmm.  We give a facture (carbon kept) if it

is asked for.  We have to OFFER them as well?  Who enforces

that and how? We have prices on the inside room doors.  I've never

seen any more in any of the French-run GdF B&Bs we stay in. 

Is it only some of the Brits who are obsessed with obeying every detail

of the crackpot regs?  I've had a drink.  Outlaws in bed.

[/quote]

Like all things in France Cassis, it is only when inspected by the

people I mentioned or the douanes or the Impôts that these things are

checked and believe me when I say, if you are not keeping records

right, or complying with all these matters, then you are for the high

jump, I kid you not.

Yes we all know of people,  like the little old lady who does

B&B etc and some Brits who ride rough shod on runing their

B&B's...good luck to them (but not too much !) but one day, just

one day, up pops someone from the authoritie and bosh.......There are

regs of course there are and they WILL be enforced as and when.....and

yes, we know recently of three, yes three, inspections from the

authorities. Crack pot regs...you know nothing about crackpot regs,

until you have been to court and see how justice is done here, you

ain't seen nothing until then ! Oh Brother, talk about guilty until

proven innocent !!!