Misrepresentation?

[Invicta]

I've just been checking on some of our competition in the area.  One couple that we know of, who was registered with gites de France for a short while, have since sold up to new owners.  The place is advertised on one of the same sites as us and is listed as being a 3* gites de france B&B.  They are using all the same photos as the previous owners (who I know have taken all their furniture and fittings with them) and the new people are now letting 3 rooms instead of the original one.  Basically, it is not the same property that the photos portray.  Does anyone know how they stand legally in France?  In England I would have thought that trading standards or someone would want a word.  Also, the original owners were assessed on one en-suite bedroom as a 3* B&B.  These people are now saying they have one en-suite room and two with shared facilities but are still saying they are a 3* gites de France.  They're not, I checked on the gites de France site.  And could they be a 3* place if they only have en-suite facilities to one of the 3 rooms?

[Tresco]

Tell Gites de France?

 

[Cerise]

Who cares - customers can look at the web sites for themselves.

[Invicta]

[quote user="Cerise"]Who cares - customers can look at the web sites for themselves.[/quote]

Why bother to reply with such an unhelpful reaction?  I care.  They're our competition and declaring themselves as being something they're not!

[Cerise]

Sorry - Bad tempered of me - but I too have a B & B and the competition often are unregistered/have dishonest adverts/do things they shouldn't be doing, but honestly is that my business.  It is just that feel life really is too short to be worrying all the time what others are up to.  Apologies, if they are really affecting your business then speak to GdF.

[Coco]

Hi Cerise

I'm mostly with you on this.  However, I can see Invicta's point - as anyone who's been on here any length of time knows, I have a real bugbear with GDF about their pedantic ways and I too would be interested to know if you can be a 3* without all rooms being en-suite.  That seems unfair to me, when I can't get more than a 2* rating, just because my room is a couple of square metres too small!  When it comes down to a larger floor area that I'm not using cos I'm in bed, or a private loo to pee in in the middle of the night, I know what I'd rather have! [;-)]  Anyone know the answer to that one?

Otherwise Invicta, annoying as it is, I don't think there's a lot you can do about it.

 

[Cassis]

Presumably guests are suitably disappointed if the reality falls below expectations, so the owners aren't doing themselves any favours in the long term if they are materially misrepresenting their property.  Gites de France are quite protective of their label (and as Coco says, some can be ridiculously severe with their members when they like) so I'd probably do as suggested above and contact the local reseau if the matter were exercising me.  Do let us know what happens when they are told about someone who is misusing their name and classification - I wonder if they'll do anything. [:P]

[Bugsy]

Yet another hanging without trial..............................................[:@]

Why don't you simply go and talk to them as fellow B&B er's for goodness sake. Could they not simply be unaware of the situation and need to be put in the picture.

Then at least, if you feel the need to 'shop' them it's on the basis that you actually know the facts.

[Chezstevens]

In essence I agree with BugBear.

Having the moral fibre to face up to wrongdoing works for me; however, unless you are a forthright individual, not easily intimidated, then talking to folks who may know their in the wrong could end up winding both sides up and then things get petty and vindictive.  If you are unhappy then a quick line to GdF may be the way forward - just hope that they are not reading this forum.  Personally, 'cos I am a large, fairly blunt individual that is not intimidated, I would ask them if they are aware of GdF's rules - having ensured that your thoughts are correct.  If they laugh it off as bureaucracy gone mad then a line to GdF may be appropriate - remember some people have invested a lot of time and money to earn their classification.

[Cassis]

Would anyone with even half a brain really think that they are entitled to advertise themselves as belonging to GdF, Clevacances, or whatever, when they don't actually belong to the association?  Anyone who does so knowingly is unlikely to take kindly to having the error of their ways pointed out to them - I reckon they will tell you to kindly walk off and mind your own business. 

Could be interesting though - go on, give it a go! [:D]

[Jc]

I've seen people with signs outside their property stating that they are members of some association or other and when challenged"Oh!,we were JUST going to take that down".

[Wendy]

Invicta, I feel that in the long run their guests will vote with their feet. That will hurt them more than anything. I'm wondering if other's agree with me here, but, there are always SOME guests who whinge that what they saw on the website does not match their expectations.  Especially those, for example, who look at photos on a website taken in Summer and arrive in Winter when the landscape is considerably different. We have had such types... 'Where is the grass and all the flowers?'...said when arriving in mid-December. Anyway, if they are advertising something specific that they are not offering then they will have to cop the flack from the guests when they arrive. And serves them right. Let them learn the hard way!. Most of us do.

 

[Cassis]

[quote user="wen"]I'm wondering if other's agree with me here, but, there are always SOME guests who whinge that what they saw on the website does not match their expectations.  Especially those, for example, who look at photos on a website taken in Summer and arrive in Winter when the landscape is considerably different. We have had such types... 'Where is the grass and all the flowers?'...said when arriving in mid-December. [/quote]

To which you quip, "Oh, you've such a sense of humour, haven't you?  Ha! Ha!"  Then retire to the kitchen and crack open the wine box ... [:)]

[Quillan]

Une annonce inexacte est répréhensible.

 

(Décret W67-128 du 14 février 1967)

Toute personne qui, a I'occasion d'une location saisonnière ou d'une offre de location saisonnière d'un local meuble, en vue de I'habitation, aura fourni des renseignements manifestement inexacts sur la situation de I'immeuble, la consistance et I'état des lieux, les éléments de confort ou I'ameublement est passible d'une amende de 3750 €, qui peut atteindre 7500 € en cas de récidive.

 

Roughly Translates to

 

An inaccurate advertisement is illegal.

 

(W67-128 Decree of February 14 1967)

Any person who offers the seasonal hiring of a building (apartment, villa, bungalow, room) and provides obviously incorrect information in their advertising is liable to a fine of 3750 Euros, which can reach 7500 Euros in the event of repetition.

 

[hastobe]

I wouldn't rely on not getting repeat custom to deter them.  We rarely go back to the same place twice, even if we thought it was great, life is just to short.  

Personally, I would report them.

Kathie

[Invicta]

Thanks for the responses.  I'm a bit surprised by those that say, leave it til people have been and see it's not up to all it should be and they won't go back.  The fact is, I was thinking about signing up with GDF (if they'll have me) but it's not cheap and if these people can just claim it without being part of it surely that is the same as stealing from those that are.  No one has yet told me whether ALL rooms need to be en-suite to gain 3 stars.  Two of our 4 rooms are en-suite, which is why I thought we may not get the rating and it has been holding me back but if it doesn't matter then I may go for it.  Alternatively, I don't want to be in the same area on a 2* rating if these people are claiming a 3 * rating with no better facilities than me.

It's a difficult situation really because I'm not a confrontational person so don't really want to face up to them.  At the same time I wouldn't be totally surprised if the previous owners sold their place on the pretence that they were still in GDF, so wouldn't want to "dob them in" as the Australians would say.  And equally, I don't want to appear like some old busy-body by telling them something they may already know and don't want to face up to.  I think I'm in a no-win situation.  I either believe that they are doing this in all naivity and perhaps I should intervene (but don't know whether I have the bottle) or believe that they are chancing their arm and taking advantage of the situation (and I still don't have the bottle to confront them directly) but am quietly boiling away to think that they could be taking some of my business by claiming to be what they are not!

[hastobe]

Seems simple to me.  First find out what the criteria of GDF is (sorry - wish I could help on that one but have no idea!).  If they are in breach, contact GDF as 'a concerned (aka cheated) guest'  - no need to say who you are.  If they are guilty, then I'm sure GDF will have something to say - if they are as stringent as has been suggested.

If they are misrepresenting their rating, then they are guilty of fraud and theft - simple as that - and I wouldn't feel in the slightest bit guilty.  If they are new owners - and have changed the room configuration it is their responsibility to ensure that the rating is still valid.  If they have failed to do so that is their problem....

Kathie

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Invicta"]

It's a difficult situation really because I'm not a confrontational person so don't really want to face up to them.  At the same time I wouldn't be totally surprised if the previous owners sold their place on the pretence that they were still in GDF, so wouldn't want to "dob them in" as the Australians would say.  And equally, I don't want to appear like some old busy-body by telling them something they may already know and don't want to face up to.  I think I'm in a no-win situation.  I either believe that they are doing this in all naivity and perhaps I should intervene (but don't know whether I have the bottle) or believe that they are chancing their arm and taking advantage of the situation (and I still don't have the bottle to confront them directly) but am quietly boiling away to think that they could be taking some of my business by claiming to be what they are not!

[/quote]

Putting my 'people skills' hat on......................................

Why would a meeting be confrontational. Just meet socially and have a chat and you'll quickly 'suss' the situation out. Sitting at home simmering or acting on some of the advice on here (ie. shop them) can only lead to a negative and potentially hostile situation. You never know, you may find some new friends. At the end of the day your own business has to compete with others, thats normal and that won't change no matter how you deal with this.

Just a suggestion, thats all.

Gary.

[Invicta]

Sounds quite a sensible one Gary.  Perhaps I will introduce myself as a fellow B&B owner and over a glass of wine or cup of coffee ask how they got their rating as I'm interested in doing the same.  Perhaps a little underhand, but it would settle my mind.

[Chief]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

Yet another hanging without trial..............................................[:@]

Why don't you simply go and talk to them as fellow B&B er's for goodness sake. Could they not simply be unaware of the situation and need to be put in the picture.

Then at least, if you feel the need to 'shop' them it's on the basis that you actually know the facts.

[/quote]

Spot on my man................................

[Chief]

[quote user="Cassis"]Would anyone with even half a brain really think that they are entitled to advertise themselves as belonging to GdF, Clevacances, or whatever, when they don't actually belong to the association?  Anyone who does so knowingly is unlikely to take kindly to having the error of their ways pointed out to them - I reckon they will tell you to kindly walk off and mind your own business. 

Could be interesting though - go on, give it a go! [:D]
[/quote]

Is it not possible they believed they were buying the title/membership whatever when they purchased the property.............would anyone with even half a brain realy condemn them before finding out???

[Chief]

[quote user="wen"]

.......... but, there are always SOME guests who whinge that what they saw on the website does not match their expectations. ........

[/quote]

Why is it whinging?.  If a website misrepresents the facts, are you not entitled to be upset about the money you have effectively been conned out of.  A website of any nature should adequately reflect reality.  Now you cannot do anything about the weather, but if for instance you are displaying pictures that clearly misrepresent the reality...well in my book that is fraud.

[Cassis]

Just to get back to one of the questions asked, to get a 3 Epis GdF rating all your rooms need to come up to that standard.  If you search for Gites de France you'll find I have posted a link to the exact requirements (a dowloadable pdf file from our website).

EDIT/HERE IT IS:

Gites de France Classification for B&B

[quote user="Chief"]Is it not possible they believed they were

buying the title/membership whatever when they purchased the

property.............would anyone with even half a brain realy condemn

them before finding out???[/quote]

Anyone who thinks they can run a B&B (or a gite, or any other business, come to that) without making at least a little effort to learn the regulations only has half a brain in my book, Chief. I would not condemn them (to what? to death? to penal servitude?) but I do think they are being stupid in what they are doing.  But then, I have an almost full sized brain. [:)]

[Quillan]

I have been thinking about this over night.

Our certificates do not have our names on them only those of the rooms, establishment and the grade the room received. All advertising on websites etc does, in many cases, have our names as a point of contact. You don’t get inspected every year but you are expected to decorate and can upgrade the rooms keeping them either the same as a minimum requirement or enhance them. You can’t make them worse than when they were graded (in theory). Because of the rules on beds it’s quite possible that the bed you sleep on is not the one that’s been inspected. It’s a bit like Trigger and his broom, it’s the same one he’s had for 20 years it’s just had two new handles and three new heads.

The only people who have included us have been Thomas Cook who feel that the owners character is equally important as the rooms and as such can increase your grading. This means that the owners are an integral part of the grading.

If we sold our B&B as a business I would expect to take all my personal stuff but to leave the (bed)rooms, contents and all the stuff like sheets etc for them. Do you know for sure that they cleared the rooms when they left or was it just their personal stuff they took?

I wonder if you got a grant under the GDF name and you sold the property a couple of years later if the person buying has to carry on with GDF or the grant money is paid back?

So I may well be wrong but the way I see it if the rooms are the same or better than when the new people bought the place I don’t think they have done anything wrong (Edit - Other than possibly letting GDF know but then you don't know if they have or haven't). To be honest the only thing you can do for sure to find out is go stay there for a night and see for yourself.

[Cassis]

A noble effort for the defence, but that won't wash, Quillan.  Here's what Invicta said:

[quote user="Invicta"] They are using all the same photos as the previous owners (who I know have taken all their furniture and fittings with them) and the new people are now letting 3 rooms instead of the original one.  ....  the original owners were assessed on one en-suite bedroom as a 3* B&B.  These people are now saying they have one en-suite room and two with shared facilities but are still saying they are a 3* gites de France.  They're not, I checked on the gites de France site. [/quote]

Re grant money for developing, as you know, it comes not from GdF or Clevacances themselves, but from the Departmental Tourist Committee (Conseil General, in effect).  The CG's rules stipilate how long you have to run the business and for how much of the year to qualify.  If you (and that means the person who obtained the grant) stop the businesss for any reason - including selling it to someone else, as they would clearly have no such obligation to continue - then you pay back pro rata.