Should I charge for cleaning ?

[Jenny P]

    We are into our third year of renting out our gite and until this summer we haven't had any English guests, just French and Belgians. It is part of our terms and conditions that the gite is left in a clean condition, like it was when the people arrived.  We haven't had any problems with this as the French and Belgians have always left it very clean, but we are very disappointed with our first English guests. They had 3 children who were probably in and out of the pool a lot but after inspecting the gite after they left on Saturday, they don't look like they have done any housework for the 2 weeks they were here (hoover, mop and all cleaning products are provided).

Now admittedly they had to get up at 3am on Saturday morning to get to the airport for their flight home, but they could have cleaned up during the Friday at least.

We spoke to them on Friday night to say goodbye (as we didn't fancy waving them off at 3am!) and so never saw the condition of the gite whilst they were there.

They said they had a lovely time and would certainly recommend it to friends.

We actually have the time to clean the gite properly as they are our last guests, but if we had had new people coming in, it would have been a rush to get it all clean, plus changing all the beds in time for 4pm, our arrival time.

So the question is, do we charge for cleaning and take off their damage

deposit, or put a note in when returning their cheque for the damage

deposit saying how they should have left it cleaner, in either case they

might be miffed and not recommend us, or do we say nothing and hope

that we get a recommendation which actually turns into a booking.

What do you more experienced gite owners think ?

Jenny

[Miki]

We would certainly charge BUT we have it in our T&C's that if the

gite is not left in a clean and tidy condition, more or less as found,

then we will charge for cleaning over and above the 30 minute going

over  we do after all guests, spotless or not !

[Rosebud]

I'm not a gite owner, but I say charge them.  If it clearly states the gite should be left as it was found, then they should expect to be charged.  I wouldn't worry about it, just charge them the going rate.....

 

good luck!

[Catalpa]

I'm not a gite owner either (bit of a theme developing here) but I say charge them. They caused you hours of extra work - that's the definite fact. They might recommend you to friends who might consider you for a holiday. Nothing there to say you'll definitely get more business. So, they pay. This is assuming you do have T&Cs which state the gite must be left clean and tidy?

[Eslier]

Jenny, I really do sympathise with you and I applaud you for identifying the true dilemma here.  Recommendations can often be a good source of bookings - we quite often receive bookings as a result of recommendations, some even for the valuable off season periods.

To help you make your decision, it is often easiest to break the issue down.

There is no doubt, from what you have said, that your guests have left your gite in an unreasonable state. I assume from the size of party, it is a three bedroom property so, based upon our own experience, I guess you would usually expect to spend about six hours (three hours for two people) cleaning it and preparing it for the next guests. I would say that this is the time it takes to do the job properly assuming the gite has been left in a reasonably clean and tidy manner by the outgoing guests. So, if the house has been left in a really bad state, how much extra time did it take you ?  In truth probably not much more than an extra couple of hours but lets say you work on the basis of an extra four hours.  If you make a charge to your guests for cleaning then this should be at a reasonable rate so let's work with 15€ an hour. This means the total amount we are talking about here is 60€.

So what happens if you charge your guests the 60€ ?   Well, firstly, you feel much better for it as it will seem that justice has been done, and you will be 60€ better off. Secondly, your guests will probably make contact back with you disputing the charge and this could get upsetting if they start making up a list of things they weren't happy with (probably all totally unreasonable). If you are strong willed and will find it easy not to get into an argument with them, and you are certain this won't upset you then fine. The third consequence is that you won't get any recommendations from these people and you may even find they tell their friends: "if you are going to the ?? are of France, whatever you do don't stay at ??? where we stayed".

What if you choose not to charge them the 60€ ?  Well, you are 60€ worse off than you might have been and have worked those extra hours for no reward.  You aren't going to get any unpleasant correspondence from your guests so the matter is closed. You might get bookings from their friends if they recommend you and there's a good chance their friends will be more considerate. If these people contact you to book again in the future you always have the opportunity to tell them you are fully booked, or you tell them you now add on a compulsory cleaning charge to all bookings.

You will need to make the decision that you feel most comfortable with. If it was me, I would consider it not worth the trouble of dealing with any unpleasantness for the sake of a small sum like 60€.

[Blanche Neige]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/737380/ShowPost.aspx

Jenny

Just in case you haven't read it the above post may be of interest.

"It is part of our terms and conditions that the gite is left in a clean condition, like it was when the people arrived." 

If you make a charge they will most likely not return (and you don't want them anyway) however it might make them more careful when / if they rent somewhere else. I somehow doubt they will dare to write / phone back to you and complain. If they do your answer will be that it is in the Ts and Cs which no doubt they signed.

Bon Courage whatever you decide[:D]

[Miki]

I have no way of saying this politely.but I have never read anything so ridiculous.

Some diabolical guests with no care or worry for her, no doubt beloved

cottage, have rented their  house and left it in a poor state,

they simply have to pay.

Sorry but  it is owners like you that are certainly helping to

fuel these problems. Every toime they canb get away with leaving

apolace like a tip, they and others they tell, will keep on treating

gîtes poorly and their owners like servants.

By saying, whats's sixty euros, you are showing Jenny the same contempt

that the guests did. The normal time taken to clean, what should have

been a clean and tidily left place, would normally be the time she

herself can relax between clients. Those awful guests

contemptibly  took away her valuable time and helped to

rubbish  her house. You have a few of those kind of guests and

very soon your cottage can age rather dramatically, we learned that

years ago.............

We can easily do our 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom gîte in an hour or so if it

has been left very tidily. Our idea has always been to build or restore

places that are easily cleaned, fresh and new looking constantly, 

full kitchens with good appliances etc etc.and the whole place easily

cleaned to look good quickly We don't charge for that extra half hour,

never have but we will ALWAYS charge anyonewho treats any of our places

with contempt and if that means they don't come back, or recommend us,

tant pis..............and they WILL pay, the T&C's say so and if

you don't stick to your T&C's when the time calls for it, you might

as well put the front page of the Beano on your regs page !

I take it you have cancellation clauses and you stick by them, or do

you again say whats's X amount, it's only money and just think,.they

may come back next year with friends.........no I didn't think

so.....................

[Blanche Neige]

Miki

Very good point, sorry, I was editing my post when you posted.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I am a gite owner. Although your contract specifies that the property should be left as found, does it state clearly

the charges that will be levied if it is not? If they are not clearly

noted then it may be difficult to justify levying them after the event.

While it is highly unlikely that a disgruntled guest would pursue the

issue, contractually you could be on soft ground.

We have opted to factor in cleaning expenses to the rental prices.

Sometimes people leave the place as though they had not been

there,  sometimes they leave a complete tip. Either way, each

property gets a thorough clean amounting to six person* hours. As a

renter, I always resented spending the final hours of my holiday trying

to make sure that there was no possible reason for someone to try a

leech a few extra quid out of me (as it used to seem from my point of

view). If you don't have the inclination to do this, why not offer it

as an extra? Most groups will be happy to stump up €50 or so for their

own peace of mind.

On this particular occasion, I'm with Eslier - chalk it up to experience.

* Actually (well more than half, anyway) French-Grandmother hours.

French grandmothers are the most powerful cleaning agents known to

science, though they get pretty militant if they don't get a proper

lunch hour. And they pick on me if I fail to mop to a sufficient degree

of cleanliness or forget to dust the tops of the picture frames. Forget

bathing - surgary could be carried out in our bathrooms after these two

have finished with them, if only one would DARE to spill blood on the

floors. If only I could bottle the essence and flog it....

[Cassis]

I think I tend to the Miki rather than the Eslier school of thinking on this.  There is absolutely no point in having terms and conditions if you're not going to enforce them appropriately.  If you don't want to enforce 'em, don't have 'em. 

PS:

Are your terms and conditions clear enough, that they should have been under no illusions about what was expected and what the consequences would be if they did not leave the place clean, tidy and in good nick?

[Jenny P]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

I see both sides of the argument.  Like Miki says, these people  should have left it clean and I am very disappointed in them (especially as they are the first English people to stay there and we were pleased to get the booking), but on the

hand if there is a chance that these people recommend us and someone actually books, then it will bring us a lot more than the suggested 60 euros we could charge for cleaning.

We do have the clause in our terms and conditions that the property should be left in a the same clean state as they found it and as it was English people, we sent a copy to them in English so they could understand it.

Unfortunately since posting my query, I have been looking through my files and I can't find a copy of our terms and conditions signed by the clients. I have the email when I sent it but when they sent back the booking form, they didn't return the conditions signed and I never checked until now. 

Unfortunately the decision will have to be to let it go, as I can't prove that they accepted the terms to leave it clean and I hope that we do get a recommendation by not deducting anything

Thanks again

Jenny

[Miki]

Jenny,

Now there is a quandary, you kind of led us, probably not

intentionally  to belive that you would have clear T&C's. If

you had none, or at least none that the hirer signed, then you are

rather "stuffed". So although I stand firmly by what I previously

stated, when believing that you were a person with T&C's in

place,  I now think all of us would in the circumstances of there

being no proof of

T&C's, say you must now quickly sort out some rules and regs to

stop

this happening again.

You could still charge them and if they do get stroppy about the

deduction, you will have to reimbourse them any monies deducted, as you

have no back up.

So yes, I would still charge them but know my rights if challenged, would not this time back me up.

Oh and by the way, don't take too much notice of all the guests you get

that say they will reccommend you. It's a thing many will say but the

proof is pretty low, it happens but nowhere even close to the amount of

times you will hear it !! Treat them all the same and put the T&C's

as your number one rule, it's easy to say "we will recommend you" when

those particular clients knew they had left your place like a

tip.......ignore that kind of throw away clap trap and you won't go far wrong......

Lesson for all new patrons I believe !

No problems Gill.

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Jenny P"]Unfortunately the decision will have to be to let it go, as I can't prove that they accepted the terms to leave it clean and I hope that we do get a recommendation by not deducting anything[/quote]

In that case, don't be tempted to pop a note in with their deposit cheque telling them they're slobs - it may make you feel better but you'll write off the time you spent cleaning and the chance of any recommendations. Bummer. [:-))] But ultimately... not life-threatening. [:D]

[nimportequoi]

If you are used to French and Belgian guests, then the state in which some UK guests leave a gite must be a bit of a shock. We do the same as JonD in factoring in the cleaning costs, but this is on the basis that the house has been left in a relatively clean and tidy state. I don't expect fridges, ovens, microwaves, bathrooms etc. to be cleaned. It is stated that any excessive cleaning charge (over and above the 'normal' cleaning up time after UK guests) will be charged for. There is also a reminder in the welcome notes that excessive cleaning charges will be deducted from the security deposit. I've only had to charge once, when all three cottages were rented by the same party and the result was an extra 6 hours of cleaning and re-arranging.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="SusanAH"]If you are used to French and Belgian guests,

then the state in which some UK guests leave a gite must be a bit of a

shock. We do the same as JonD in factoring in the cleaning costs, but

this is on the basis that the house has been left in a

relatively clean and tidy state. I don't expect fridges, ovens,

microwaves, bathrooms etc. to be cleaned. It is stated that any

excessive cleaning charge (over and above the 'normal' cleaning up time

after UK guests) will be charged for. There is also a reminder in the

welcome notes that excessive cleaning charges will be deducted from the

security deposit. I've only had to charge once, when all three

cottages were rented by the same party and the result was an extra 6

hours of cleaning and re-arranging.[/quote]

A clause for excessive or specialist cleaning, as Susan suggests, is a

really good idea (what do people do on sofas?). Again, how the charges

are to be arrived at should be made crystal clear.

[Russethouse]

>>As a renter, I always resented spending the final hours of my holiday trying to make sure that there was no possible reason for someone to try a leech a few extra quid out of me (as it used to seem from my point of view). <<

As a renter I agree - its a holiday and nothing spoils it more than spending your last hours packing and cleaning, far better IMHO for owners to factor cleaning in  If some renters are clean & tidy its a bonus.

That said surely by turning up to Jenny Ps these people had a tacit acceptance of Jenny P's terms and conditions ? As long as they had seen the T&C before they arrived I would charge them..

[ngh]

This may sound a bit daft, but when our guests go , even after they have cleaned. It takes me oner 1/2 hr to clean the cooker and it take myself and my wife a good 4 hrs to clean the full farmhouse. I would not want to rent a property the had, cobwebs behind or under furniture, finger marks on furniture, mirrors or windows let alone marked crockery. To say nothing of rugs or tiles not properly cleaned. And the only way to make sure all is cleaned properly is to DO IT YOURSELF. As we see it, thats our job.Thats perhaps why people want to come back. I now its a long time to spend cleaning , but now-one can say they have been to a dirty gite. I'm not saying anyone else's is, so don't pull me on it. So i would not charge extra for cleaning, broken cups plates etc. I would rather people felt at ease, so they come back.If the place was a left like a "pig sty" then i would have to think again. But then i wouldn't have them back.

 

[Sabina]

At place of signature on my booking form is the following statement:-

'I have read and understand the terms and conditions relating to this booking and confirm that I am authorised by all persons listed to make this booking on their behalf'.

Would this be a useful addition for your form?

Sabina

[Jenny P]

Thanks for all your comments.

On reflection, we have decided to go ahead and charge them even though they didn't sign and return a copy of the booking conditions, they did receive them as I still have a copy of the email. We don't want people like that to come back as we are quite happy with our French and Belgian guests and if they do happen to recommend us to their friends, we may end up with the same problem.

I understand that some people don't want to spend their last day or two of their holiday cleaning, in which case they should either chose a gite which has a paid cleaning service or ask the owners if they can forgo the cleaning and pay something extra towards it.

We do spend the time between guests making sure the gite is clean for the next guests, but I don't expect to have to clean the whole gite (which has in fact got 3 bedrooms and 4 beds to change as we provide linen).  I do check the oven, hob, microwave etc, clean the windows and then we also have to make sure the pool is sparkling clean, do the mowing and any strimming and so the time passes quickly enough without having to do a full clean.

Thanks again and if anything, we have learnt our lesson about not checking if people have sent back the booking conditions signed (it is the first time it has happened!).

Thanks also to Sabrina. We have already had the thought of putting a note on the booking form that signing it means that they agree to the T&C's but yours is better worded, so we will use that.

[zeb]

We always rent through GdF. In every case we have had the option (which we usually take) of hiring bedding, and paying a cleaning charge (usually 45 euros) on top of the rental amount. We always hoover round and do basic clean of bathroom and kitchen but there is no way I want to spend hours doing deep cleaning on my final day, but French renters it seems are happy to do that.

You must have clear T&C which are sent out, signed and returned. After all, you are running a business and want to look professional. Just add this option to your T&C and ask guests when they arrive if they want to take it up. Everyone knows where they stand and, if the option hasn't been taken, and the house is left in a mess you can happily deduct it from the deposit.

PS With GdF we always pay a 250-300 euro deposit for a three epie gite de characteur.

[mitsi]

For what it's worth , as you have already made your decision, I have 2 x3 bed. gites that were rented out all summer. Fortunately the bookings overlapped so we only had 2 weeks where we had both to clean on the Saturday which was very hard work.  I have to agree with Jon D and Nich, I factor in the cost with the booking. Nobody ever cleans the gite the way I would want, I move all furniture and clean underneath. I clean cookers and fridges as it's rare even if it has been cleaned that it's enough. I feel that people come here on holiday to get away from the housework, and are impressed by the cleanliness on arrival. That doesn't mean I'm happy about the mess (which in fairness hasn't been much) but I would clean as thoroughly regardless so it doesn't add that much time overall. I would have been more likely to chalk it down to experience and amend the T's & C's accordingly to cover yourself for next time.

I may well offer a weekly cleaning service for those staying two weeks or more though - that could be a good idea.

It's interesting that you have had only French and Belgium customers - we have only had English - we've had no enquireries from other nationalities so I'd be interested where you advertise!

[Blanche Neige]

Jenny P I have sent you a PM[:)]

[Maddie]

I've only ever had one family leave the palce as they find it (apart from the oven where there were a few crumbs and they phoned up to apologise!).  More often than not I have to spend 4 hours plus making the place as spotless as it was when they found it.  I am beginning to resent this a lot.  I do say on my terms and conditionn quite clearly that I can make a charge for excess cleaning but so far I have not.  How do you define excess cleaning?  I have charged for breakages.  I check everything before guests arrive so when cutlery goes missing or crockery is chipped they have to pay for it to be replaced.  A chipped plate gets replaced and the client charged for it.  I also show people around myself when they arrive so they know exactly what state the property is in when they get there.

I leave cleaning equipment/prducts for my guests and expect them to use it.  In the future I shall be making up a letter to be placed alongside the fosse information telling renters exactly how I expect the place to be left.

PS I have found family staying to be the WORST renters.  After a member of my family left I ended up having to wash duvets and sofa covers where the children had been sick and has squirted a bottle of sun tan lotion over the sofa!  Thankfully they left midweek and the next guests didint arrive til the weekend.  When they want to come again I shall be fully booked!

[Wendy]

Jenny, you must charge them for leaving the gite in an uninhabitable condition. If you do not, they will recommend you only as people who are happy to clean up after their guests. They knew it was not a hotel.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Mrs MDW"]

I am beginning to resent this a lot.  I

do say on my terms and conditionn quite clearly that I can make a

charge for excess cleaning but so far I have not.  How do you

define excess cleaning? 

[/quote]

A good question. We define it as being anything that cannot be done on

the changeover day due to the nature of the stains or whatever. So if a

sofa cover had to be taken and sent for specialist cleaning, for

example, we would deem it excessive and bill it. Ditto hiring a steam

cleaner to do a carpet.

I don't resent the cleaning - it goes with the job - but six hours per

property (they sleep 8-11, so they are a fair size) should be adequate

to get them spotless. Above this then something is excessive.