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Dodgy tenants


Josephine79

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I notice that the thread about the family who bunked off leaving debts has been locked. I read it all carefully and would like to add my two penn'th.

This problem DOES affect gite owners - it happened to someone I know very well. This is how it happens.

The Family book for a holiday, lets say two weeks in September. Or they say they are waiting for building work to be completed on their new property. They are due to leave on or before 1st October. Who asks for proof, references and guarantees for two weeks? No one. They arrive, pay and take possession, but then fail to leave. They make some excuse, (the builders haven't finished yet: it's easy to believe)  but they are still there on 15th October.

Folks you have MEGA problems.

Gite or not, no one can be evicted from anywhere between 15th October and 15th March.

You can get all the huissiers, avocats and tribunaux you like to agree that they are there illegally - the judge will even stamp the eviction order, but you CANNOT evict them by force (not you, not the huissier, no one) - if you do you will be in the brown sticky stuff up to your neck as they will sue you for entering their "domicile" illegally, never mind that they are occupying the premises illegally - a Frenchman's domicile is his castle!

Of course in theory the huissier can get the boys in blue to put the frighteners on them, but they will only act if the "Prefet" authorizes it. And the Prefet NEVER does because it's a vote loser to evict  poor, downtrodden tenants.

So there they are, in your gite, using your water, your electricity, your gas - not only are they not paying you rent  and preventing you from letting to bona fide tenants, but you are paying their bills. And of course you have paid the bailiff and  the barrister.

Don't bother trying to get social services involved - they are on the side of the tenants.

If it happens to you there is nothing you can do but wait for them to move off of their own accord and hope they don't wreck the place.

Sorry to paint such a dramatic picture but this is a true story - it happened in the Deux-Sèvres and is doubtless being repeated all over France.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Jo

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The préfet is not elected: they are appointed to serve the legal

interests of the state, so popularity is not one of their concerns -

have a look at some of the decrees they sign. There may well be another

reason why they do not sign off, but votes ain't it.

I've not come across this situation, but I'd be intersted to hear more.

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If it were me, with squatting tenants in a gite, I might not legally be allowed to evict them during winter months, but I would certainly turn off (or remove) the gas, the water and the electricity to the gîte.  I might even decide that a few of the bigger, tougher guys from the local bar desperatley needed a roof over their heads, and invite them to move into the gîte for a few days.  Nothing violent you understand, just a place to lay their heads for a while. If they were then to have noisy parties into the wee small hours it would be a pity, as it might disturb the other "guests". If one, or more of them happened to have a big barkie dog, so much the better.

I would imagine that the original tenants would soon give up and move on.

But it is a valid and interesting point you make Jo.

 

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Has the world gone mad ! things like this never cease to amaze me.

From what you say there is no way to avoid this - but what if you had a contract with someone to live there throughout Winter - can you not produce this to the Prefecture and ask how he suggests you 'kick these people on the street'. Surely the persons with the contract have more rights than the squatters in situ ?

Alternatively is there not any urgent work that needs attending to at the property (particularly for safety reasons) - sounds like a complete re-wiring might be cheaper than allowing them to stay in situ ? I am sure you could get some willing local Electrician to produce some reason why it would not be safe for them to be there. Just a thought and probably not a good one but in this situation I think I would try anything.

Guess this is the payback we might all receive for believing there are decent honest people out there ! Sad world hey

 

 

 

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I'm sure they do know their rights, but in fact a neighbour had a similar problem here last winter.  Not in a gîte, but in a long term rental .  The tenant had not payed any rent or utility bills for quite some time, but could not be evicted as it was winter.  The owner turned off the fuel for the central heating (as it was fed from his own property and fuel tank).  The tenant actually had her own social worker, and was well  know to the social authorities, so would have been in an excellent postion to pursue this through the courts, had it been an option.  The owner was never brought to task for turning off the fuel, the legality was never challenged.

I will leave you to draw your own conclusions.

 

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I think Jasper and Cat are on the right lines. When faced with a similar problem in the UK a friend of mine sent a group of burly friends and relatives round to replace the kitchen. They took all the doors of and disconnected things, then sent out for fish and chips which they ate sitting around on the floor and generally made a mess. Unfortunately the replacement kitchen didn't turn up when it was supposed to do and the unwanted tenants left during the following week.

You're taking a gamble, of course, but in this case it paid off.

Hoddy
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[quote user="Josephine79"]Dear Jon,

and who appoints the Préfet?

Our elected representatives!

The Préfet is the government's man and will not risk doing anything unpopular.

[/quote]

Dear Jo,

They do masses of unpopular things. That is part of their job - water

restrictions, hunting quotas,etc. That way the elected can point to him

/ her and say; "Not us guv - it's the law!" They certainly wouldn't

shirk from setting the upholders of peace and tranquility on a bunch of

evil doers, particularly if they are grubby foreigners who can't vote. If they had the right to do so, that

is.

Which comes back to your original point - getting anyone out in winter

is not an easy task. Certainly food for thought. I think I'd be very

cautious taking a booking from British families already in France after

hearing this (not to mention the earlier thread). Not without a little

research first. And a credit card number.

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Oh dear, what a timely thread. I have a family arriving today for whom I have no references, they phoned up a few days ago looking for a dog friendly gite in which to stay for a week, 2 at most while they look for a long term let. I am aware of the rules of no eviction rule during winter, but have never had any problems with winter tennants (or had any dishonest tennants either) before, so I said yes. I have a contract ready and was also going to take a good deposit, but this may not be enough! [8-)]

Anybody any other suggestions apart from keeping the door locked and going out??

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Susan - re my last: do you have facility to take a credit card? It is a

general observation, but those about to commit fraud often do not like

using cards for accomodation as they leave an electronic trail. If they

have already skipped somewhere, this will flash up their whereabouts to

anyone looking for them. These days virtually anyone is happy to pay by

card: if they are not it would give me cause for concern.

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Jon, unfortunately no, I do everything by bank transfer or cheque (was always put off the cc machine charges!) - but I agree with you, having to give a credit card number up front as you do when you book hotels etc. would definitely be the best thing to do to avoid the situation occuring. Oh well, we'll see what happens. I'm sure it is the minority of people who 'squat', most people are honest, trouble is, you just never know!

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Dear Josephine,

Many thanks for your post,  it was nice to have my comments about the big differences between long term lets and gite rentals substantiated - I got seriously slated for making this point in my previous posts - maybe some of those who chose to berate my points may read your comments and learn something!!! I still believe that 'long term rentals' would be better served in a separate section altogether on this site as they are nothing remotely related to 'gites' as the laws in France regarding responsibilities are very clear.

Once again, thank you for your interesting post.

Regards,

Pun

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Pun, I thought Josephine was making the point that the two types of rentals are connected? That an owner thinking they were renting their gite out for one or two weeks could end up with it being a long term 'rental' but without the rent being paid? As she says, you can rent out your property for a week in the from October to end of March for a week in good faith to someone, but if the tenant chooses to stay longer, you as an owner have no right to evict them during the winter months.

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Josephine,

I received the following advice from an American owner of  French property:

"In Europe you, unfortunately now, have to play

it by the rules but remember rules can always be bent....The easiest is

to change the locks then say you have lost the key, then arrange to

meet the renters, with a "locksmith" who helps to "remove" all their

possessions due to "flood damage".

In the States it's much easier. Just go with the sheriff and change

the locks. This has worked for me on strips, office blocks and houses.

Non- payers in houses are easy.....if you can't change the locks, just

haul off their vehicle and threaten to sell/tell the finance company.

In states like Florida....the law is always on the side of the

owner and passing bad checks, kiteing, is a prisonable offence and so

is staying longer then the contract states.

Unfortunately the "Good Old Days" of turning off utillites/putting

vermin/snakes in the property or appearing in the dead of night with

"large gentlemen" have gone.

Thank God I've retired......because of all this PC.....all the "fun" has gone out of the rental game!"

On a side note, (this is perhaps not the right thread) but what's the French for broken record ? "
disque cassé"?

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Being new to the Forum I read with interest the post regarding the 'long term let' and Pun's comments. I didn't comment then though I was amazed that somebody who as yet 'has no actual experience of gite rental' and as far as I can see has only the experience of reading about other people's experiences could be so damning of somone just trying to earn an honest living.

Perhaps I am wrong in assuming that this is what 'Gite rental' is all about and whether it is a short term or long term let then it really is of no difference. Yes before you come back with the differences in the laws regarding being a 'Landlord' lets just keep it in perspective. The whole point of these posts are purely to make us all aware that there are some really dodgy characters out there. People who on the surface behave like you or I but when it comes down to it they are capable of all sorts of wrong doings.

Pun I hope that when you do start letting out property all of your dotting the 'T's' and crossing the 'I's' that you take great pains to point out you have done will be beneficial in spotting any unscrupulous character ! Truth is I think you will be in exactly the same position as all of us out there and just relying on the goodness of human nature and crossing your fingers.......unless of course you are mystic meg in which case any idea on the lottery numbers ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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"but what if you had a contract with someone to live there throughout Winter" Jasper

Hi Jasper, one would think so, but as the squatters are in residence and the people with the contract are not, then it's not you kicking them into the street. Presumably the logic would be for them to sit tight wherever they were before and create a "chain" - but if they are upright citizens with incomes and assets then this will not appeal. I suppose they could actually sue you for breach of contract!

In this case the law is very definitely an ass.

"is there not any urgent work that needs attending to at the property"? Could be arranged, but they've thought of that and are demanding to be paid to leave! And of course we couldn't in all conscience foist them off on to anyone else......

In this case it's very much "caveat lessor "!

Jo

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That's just the problem Susan, even with the contracts, and an eviction order showing that the tenants are in breach of contract, the eviction cannot take place between October and mid March.

A standard gite rental contract (for locations saisonnières) has a clause that clearly states that the tenants have no right of occupation after the leaving date on the contract, but apparently this makes no difference in the winter.

 

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Sorry, the past true story has some how become telescoped with the present situation.

The Gite story is all true, but over and done with - they eventually moved on when the bailiff applied (possibly illegal) pressure - but not until March, anyway so they were there for 6 months without paying rent.

The present situation is a long term let that as gone horribly wrong so there is a signed contract, but the bailiff says that it can take three years to get them out if they won't go.

Neither of these families were my tenants, but  I am trying to help the victims and prevent anyone else from being conned because I find such behaviour inexcusabale. Unfortunately it is on the increase as the family who are at present causing problms is not the same one that did a runner from Fumanzoku's property, although they are in the same area.

Jo

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[quote user="Josephine79"]

"In this case the law is very definitely an ass."

[/quote]

Well, just look at that. Are we being moderated by Americans?

You all know what the end of the expression is, but I actually wrote it in full.

So why has it come out as "***".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ass

"Ass, from Old English assa, ultimately from Latin asinus, is the older word for donkey".

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