Northender Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 HiIn January I accepted a booking from a family in Ireland to stay in our Gite.I accepted a Euro cheque as deposit for a 2 week stay in early June.I agreed not to cash the cheque and hold it as the security deposit when full payment was made by internet transfer to my French bank in early May.They have contacted me via e-mail (even though we have spoken on the telephone in the past) that the husband as been made redundant and they are unable to come.I have a couple of questions.1) Our terms and conditions clearly state that if another let is not secured we can keep the deposit , but would this be morally right.2) Can the cheque be stopped?Thanks in anticipation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Redman Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 1. It depends on how you feel. If I had turned down another booking and was on my uppers I would feel I could keep the money - otherwise why have terms. Equally if it made the difference between which grade of Bolinger we were drinking this week I would not like to take the money off them2. Possibly it depends on where it is drawn. Banking law in Southern Ireland / Irish Republic is more like the UK than France so I suspect they can stop the cheque Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEO Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I think you should bank/cash the cheque - they have to give their bank, a very good reason to stop the cheque - redundancy would not be a very good reason for legally stopping a cheque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I rarely get cheques as deposits, I use PayPal for them. When I do get a cheque its a French one and I always cash it straight away. Another point is as I understand it as somebody complained a while back about it on the forum is that cashing a Republic or Ireland cheque is quite expensive.People seem to think they can make up any terms and conditions they like for holiday rentals in France but the truth is that it has to be acceptable under French law as thats where the property is after all. Below are part of the Terms and Conditions as negotiated by both GDF and Clevacances and are deemed acceptable under French law which basically means its difficult to challenge them (by tennant and owner), they are on the back of all their contracts and are as follows (as taken and translated from the back of one of the aforementioned contracts).:General Conditions.Only French law is applicable.General ProvisionsUnder no circumstances can the tenant extend the period of stay except by agreement of the owner.Under no circumstances can the tenant sublet any part of the property or room without the express permission of the owner in writing.No modification of these Terms and Conditions can take place without the agreement of the two parts.The owner commits himself not to reveal any information given to him by any guest to a third party unless requested to do so by the government and/or the Courts.DepositA deposit will be required for your reservation. This will be between 15 and 25% of the value of the reservation plus the cost of any meals ordered on the first night. (The later is for B&B's only)Cancellation of ReservationAny cancellation must be notified by registered letter or telegram:- If more than 90 days notice is given the deposit will be refunded in full within 30 days of receipt of the cancellation letter or telegram.- If notice of cancellation is given between 60 and 90 days 75% of the deposit will be refunded within 30 days of receipt of the cancellation letter or telegram.- If notice of cancellation is given between 30 and 60 days 50% of the deposit will be refunded within 30 days of receipt of the cancellation letter or telegram.- No deposit will be returned if notice of cancellation is given less than 30 days prior to arrival.The owner recommends that all guests take holiday insurance.For gites there is a bit to add about security payment as its called which is for damages but not technically part of the deposit and must be itemised separately.So working on a couple of assumptions like you posted this the day you got the phone call I would roughly calculate that you are entitled to keep 50% of the deposit plus any reasonable fee incurred for the cashment of said cheque and minus any damage deposit. If you keep the lot then should they decide to challenge you under French law you would more than likely loose and incur costs although to be honest its highly unlikely they will bother.For the future I would strongly recommend you incorporate the above terms and conditions and definitely say you only accept cancellations via registered letter or telegram (nobody uses the latter but it keeps the French legal system happy). Personally I would also consider joining either GDF or Clevacances as they can be very helpful in these cases and have quite a bit of 'weight' within the French legal system.Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Legally, Quillan is on the ball 100% there, and I would agree to keeping half the deposit plus banking fees. Morally, well that depends on how likely you are to rent that week out to other guests. If it were me in the situation, I wouldnt take any of the deposit. I can be reasonably sure that I could rent the week at short notice, plus I believe a little goodwill goes long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Another thing which I have done from time to time depending on the reason for the cancelation is to keep the deposit (or part of) and then tell them that they can use it should the make a reservation with me at another time. Sort of slap on one side of the face and a kiss on the other [:D] .You must remember that you are in business and not a charity although at the end of the day its up to you. How would you feel if you went to cash the cheque and it bounced? Was that because they stopped it anyway or because they had no money in the account or what? They have then deprived you of your legal right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northender Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 Thank you for speedy responses.Lessons learned?Amend our T&C to cover this eventuality in future and comply with French law.At present we ask for a £100 deposit irrespective of the length of stay or time of year , and if client cancels we will reimburse only if we re-let.I doubt we will be able to re-let these 2 weeks , but taking in your comments about goodwill and the amount involved I think this cheque will probably end up in the bin.If I did try and cash it and it had been stopped the effect on my blood pressure !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimportequoi Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I always cash the 25% deposit. If I have a cancellation and re-let, I refund it, minus any admin charges, or offer to put it towards another week's holiday at another time, even though my contract says the deposit isn't refundable (goodwill and all that).Unfortunately hardly anyone takes out holiday insurance to cover them for cancellations on their part, I wish they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 [quote user="nimportequoi"].......even though my contract says the deposit isn't refundable....... [/quote]Unless that's for the 30 days prior to the guest arriving I fear that should you be challenged in a French court not only would you have to hand over the prescribed percentage based on the time period between cancellation and arrival but you would also have to pay costs as well which will probably be a lot more than the deposit you kept. There is also a brochure available from the French Department of Trade and Industry about holiday accommodation that explains both the rentor and the tenants rights under French law from a camping site through B&B to Gite and beyond. Well worth a read in conjunction with a specimen contract from either GDF or Clevacances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatscoleymo Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 This has had me thinking - just out of interest has anybody taken legal proceedings or had them taken against them for any reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimportequoi Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 [quote user="Quillan"][quote user="nimportequoi"].......even though my contract says the deposit isn't refundable....... [/quote]Unless that's for the 30 days prior to the guest arriving I fear that should you be challenged in a French court not only would you have to hand over the prescribed percentage based on the time period between cancellation and arrival but you would also have to pay costs as well which will probably be a lot more than the deposit you kept. [/quote]Can you please quote me the source of this Quillan? On the vosdroits.service-public.fr site it says this about locations de vacances and it is what I have always followed - I specify my own terms in the contract, 25% deposit with the balance paid 6 weeks before arrival. The deposit (acompte or arrhes, I prefer acompte) is not refundable. I have enforced this before at short notice cancellations and have never had a problem with people threatening to sue me. In fact, they are lucky that I don't demand the balance (solde) from them as well, as I am entitled to it according to my contract. Le contrat doit préciser: la durée de la location, le prix (il ne doit pas varier en fonction du nombre d'occupants), les charges, le versement d'avance, la caution ou le dépôt de garantie, les éventuelles conditions d'annulation, la commission, la taxe de séjour. Conditions d'annulation Une réservation peut être annulée, même si une avance a été versée. Mais cette annulation n'aura pas les mêmes conséquences selon que le locataire verse des arrhes ou un acompte. Le contrat signé entre le locataire et le loueur(ou l'échange de courrier) peut préciser la nature de l'avance, mais sicelle-ci n'est pas précisée, les sommes versées d'avance sont desarrhes. Effet de l'annulation S'il s'agit d'arrhes, celles-ci sont un moyen dedédit. Si la réservation est annulée par le locataire, les arrhesversées sont perdues. Si c'est le loueur qui annule, il doit aulocataire le double des arrhes versées. S'il s'agit d'acompte, la réservation est unengagement ferme qui entraîne pour le locataire l'obligation de verserla totalité du loyer ou à défaut de dédommager le loueur (sauf en casde force majeure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 In our region when you register either a Chambres d'hote or Gite you are sent a booklet called "Les Locations Saisonnières en Meubles" which is issued by "Ministère de l’économique des finances et de l’industrie" .A couple of things it talks about is firstly contracts.The contract of hiring must be written.Any offer or seasonal hiring must take the written form and must contain the price and a description of the building (apartment, villa, bungalow, room). (article L.324-2 of the code tourism).The contract must be given to the tenant prior to them taking possession of the building (apartment, villa, bungalow, room).The contract should be dated and contain both yours and the tenant’s names and addresses and the address of the building (apartment, villa, bungalow, room). It should also contain the duration of the hiring. The note should be produced in duplicate and you must retain a copy for two years. Caution The absence of a contract or the failing to keep a copy for two years will result in a fine capable of reaching 15,000 Euros.(Article L.312-3 of code tourism)I then goes on to talk about deposits and what they are (there is a difference between what they call a deposit and a down payment. The later is when a person pays for their accommodation over several installments and a deposit is where they pay with two payments). It then goes on to describe how deposits are dealt with in regards to cancellations. If the tenant cancels then the terms are as I have already given if the previous post, if the owner (hirer as the French call him/her) cancels then it is as follows.By the Hirer? :In the case of down payments the hirer must return double the payments already received. In the event of a deposit must return the deposit and may be asked for compensation.With regards to Chambres d'hotes )CDH) and according to the owners section of the Clevacances website they have challenged the legality of issuing contracts on the basis that the current format of contracts are to long and convoluted to be used in the real world as they were initially drawn up for Gite owners and that because of that CDH owners never actually used them. This has been talked about in the B&B section some time back and most (if not all) GDF and Clevacance members get them but never use them.On the basis of the above CDH owners are obliged to send a letter confirming the tenants reservation and it must include the information above which is to be included in a Gite contract i.e. Tenants name and address, length of stay, date of letter, arrival date, departure date, description of room/services (B&B only, demi pension etc) and the hirer's name and address. This is a letter and not a contract and does not require signatures from either the tenant or owner. Again copies must be held for 2 years.Hope that clears things up a bit. Personally I have placed the Terms and Conditions taken from a copy of the Clevacances contract on my website in both French and English. When I get a reservation I send the tenant confirmation of their reservation by either email or post containing the information stated above. I keep both a computer and hard copy along with their final invoice. The chances of anyone ever asking for them is probably zero just like I have never personally heard of any hirer/owner being taken to court over a deposit. My attitude is to be prepared just in case it ever happens ( because if anyone is going to get visited its always me or so it seems) so I keep within the legal requirements at all times (he said hopefully).PS Sorry about the fonts being all over the place, the stuff in italics is from the booklet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimportequoi Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 [quote user="nimportequoi"][quote user="Quillan"][quote user="nimportequoi"].......even though my contract says the deposit isn't refundable....... [/quote]Unless that's for the 30 days prior to the guest arriving I fear that should you be challenged in a French court not only would you have to hand over the prescribed percentage based on the time period between cancellation and arrival but you would also have to pay costs as well which will probably be a lot more than the deposit you kept. [/quote]Can you please quote me the source of this Quillan? [/quote]You still haven't answered my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Yes I did.[quote user="Quillan"] In our region when you register either a Chambres d'hote or Gite you are sent a booklet called "Les Locations Saisonnières en Meubles" which is issued by "Ministère de l’économique des finances et de l’industrie" .[/quote]I then went on to say.[quote user="Quillan"] It then goes on to describe how deposits are dealt with in regards to cancellations. If the tenant cancels then the terms are as I have already given if the previous post[/quote]In the previous post I said the following which from the aformentioned booklet.[quote user="Quillan"] Cancellation of ReservationAny cancellation must be notified by registered letter or telegram:- If more than 90 days notice is given the deposit will be refunded in full within 30 days of receipt of the cancellation letter or telegram.- If notice of cancellation is given between 60 and 90 days 75% of the deposit will be refunded within 30 days of receipt of the cancellation letter or telegram.- If notice of cancellation is given between 30 and 60 days 50% of the deposit will be refunded within 30 days of receipt of the cancellation letter or telegram.- No deposit will be returned if notice of cancellation is given less than 30 days prior to arrival.[/quote]Original French version from booklet.Annulation de réservationToute résiliation doit être notifiée par lettre recommandée ou télégramme :- Lorsque la résiliation intervient dans un délai supérieur à 90 jours avant l’entrée dans les lieux, le propriétaire restitue dans les 30 jours de la résiliation l’intégralité du montant des arrhes versées par le locataire. - Si cette résiliation intervient dans un délai compris entre 60 à 90 jours avant l’entrée dans les lieux, le propriétaire restitue dans les 30 jours de la résiliation 75% du montant des arrhes versées par le loco to ire.- Si cette résiliation intervient dans un délai compris entre 30 à 60 jours avant l’entrée dans les lieux, le propriétaire resitue dans les 30jours de la résiliation' 50% du montant- Si cette résiliation intervient dans un délai inférieur à 30 jours avant l’entrée dans les lieux, le propriétaire conserve l’intégralité du montant des arrhes versées par le locataire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimportequoi Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Oh yes, your posts are so long that I don't read all of them. As I'm not with either G de F or Clévacances, I'm happy to go along with the source I quoted instead [:)] and keep 100% of the deposit if I can't re-let. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doright Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Hi folks, thanks for the interesting discussion & information. Quillan, perhaps you can point me in the right direction to find the legal position on Security deposits too? I have recently had an annoying problem relating to this and would like to fully undertstand my legal position.Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 The booklet I was saying about came from these people http://www.minefe.gouv.fr/ and was part of the 'pack' I received when I registered. You could try either looking around their website, there may be a PDF version or contacting them direct to get one sent through the post. The name of the booklet is called "Location Saisonnière la Location d'un Immeuble ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 The quote dropped off when I did the first edit. This was in response to the OP deciding not to cash the cheque.In that case, email them and tell them that due to their unfortunate circumstances, you will not cash the cheque. If they have already stopped it they may (depending on the sort of person they are) feel morally inferior to you. If the haven't they will think you are fantastic people and may recommend you to their more affluent friends.In either case, you are in charge of the outcome and that will be good for you.(Edited due to me being stupid and deleting too much.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Northender - just suppose they have lied about the reason for the change ? IMHO you seem to have forgotten the first law of running a business - "I am doing this to make money". Holding the moral high ground won't put food on your table - but it takes all sorts etcJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluebell Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 It looks to me like these people just lied because they had changed their minds. I'm usually quite generous but here I would definitely keep the deposit. It's easy to lie by email.It happens a lot on eBay. Somebody bids on an item and then they change their mind. I was selling a wardrobe once and the woman couldn't be bothered fetching it so she made up a ridiculous story about spending a week sitting by her husband who had had an accident and was dangerously ill in hospital. Perhaps she had forgotten that I could see what she was buying while he 'hovered between life and death' - fancy lingerie, rude teeshirts, computer games etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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