VandA Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Hi,We're in the process of converting a stable building into a gite at our main house and I am wondering if there are any good (and up to date!) articles on which tax regime to go for when running it.My wife and I are both registered and already pay tax in France. I would anticipate that income from the gite would not exceed €32000 a year and I would like to maximise the amount we can claim for running costs and minimise the amount we pay in cotisations.Can anyone point me in the right direction or do I need to find an accountant with knowledge in this area?Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert the InfoGipsy Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 It may depend on what you mean by "My wife and I are both registered and already pay tax in France." If you already have registered businesses then that will affect how you can register the gite busines, or whether you actually need to register it at all.I believe that gite income that is less than some fraction (50%, 25% ???) of your total income can be declared for tax but attract no cotisations. I'm basing this on what I've read so I hope that one of the established gite owners might be able to confirm it or tell you what the real situation is.Your mention of €32,000 sounds like a reference to a Micro or autoentrepreneur option. If you already have registered businesses I'm pretty sure you can't have a Micro or AE as well. Also, they are both based on fixed percentages of your turnover for expense allowances rather than real expenses, although I believe that the allowance for a gite business is pretty generous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VandA Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 Thanks for the reply A the I. I work in the UK still but declare my income in France - the wife works a couple of hours a week in France - we have no business registered in France.It appears that the MicroBIC will be the way to go as the allowances are about 79% against income. I am just hoping the social cotisations will be small! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert the InfoGipsy Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 If you're considering Micro BIC then definitely look at autoentrepreneur. The allowances are expressed differently but I'm pretty sure they work out to the same actual cotisations. The advantage of AE is that you pay, in arrears, based on your real turnover and not some theoretical default income that the bureaucrats dream up. With AE if you don't earn you don't pay, which is not true of most other regimes.From memory, an AE gite business pays cotisations of 12% with a turnover limit of €80,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimportequoi Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 The allowances aren't 79%, they are 71% for the micro bic régime and as from 2010 you need to be registered as a meublé de tourisme with the préfecture or Gites de France to qualify for this percentage. If you aren't, then the abattement is only 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Hi, "n'importe-quoi" is not strictly correct. All gites have to be registered at their local mairie, and all "gites, chambers d'hotes, and other furnished holiday lets" are eligible for the 71% allowance. There is a lot of confusion over this as the government changed the rules several times in quick succession, and there is a lot of out-of-date info on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimportequoi Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Actually, my information is correct, the registration at the Mairie is nothing to do with the new finance law. Maybe you should check your facts by referring to the relevant texts. But if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't the case, it isn't my problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Hi, First let me say I am not a gite-owner so "sticking my head in the sand" does not apply. According to the official government site "service public" -which unlike some others is probably regularly up-dated- the only obligatory registration is with the mairie on form Cerfa 14004-01 . Gite owners are encouraged to apply to the préfecture for a "classement" (1-5 stars) which gives them certain advantages and is a marketing aid , but this is voluntary, and is not connected to the tax regime. If anyone has references to (up-to-date) regulations which say otherwise , I would be interested to see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimportequoi Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 "A compter du 1er janvier 2009, les activités de location directe ou indirecte de locaux d'habitation meublés ou destinés à être loués meublés, autres que ceux mentionnés aux 1° à 3° du III de l'article 1407, relèvent, pour ce régime, du seuil de 32 000 € et du taux d'abattement de 50 %3. Pour plus de précisions sur le régime des micro-entreprises, il conviendra de se reporter à l'instruction administrative 4 G-1-09 en date du 5 janvier 2009."Those mentioned in 1° à 3° du III de l'article 1407 are defined as follows:-"Gîtes ruraux. - Les gîtes ruraux sont définis dans l'instruction du 23 février 1993, 6 E-2-93 à laquelle il convient de se reporter.Le gîte rural s'entend du logement meublé qui remplit deux conditions :- ne pas constituer l'habitation principale ou secondaire du locataire ;- être classé « Gîtes de France ». Il est précisé que la qualification de « Gîtes de France » ne résulte plus d'un classement réglementaire mais est attribuée de manière autonome par l'association le Relais Départemental des « Gîtes de France ». Les locaux concernés correspondent à des hébergements touristiques principalement situés en zone rurale (Inst. n° 18 et 19).6. Meublés de tourisme. - Conformément à l'article D 324-1 du Code du tourisme, les meublés de tourisme sont constitués des villas, appartements ou studios meublés, à usage exclusif du locataire, offerts en location à une clientèle de passage qui y effectue un séjour caractérisé par une location à la journée, à la semaine ou au mois, et qui n'y élit pas domicile (Inst. n° 20).7. Afin d'obtenir le classement, le loueur en meublé ou son mandataire est tenu de déposer à la mairie de la commune où est situé le meublé une déclaration conforme à laquelle il joint le certificat de visite délivré par l'organisme agréé et un état descriptif du meublé et de ses conditions de location. Le maire délivre en retour un accusé de réception et un numéro d'identification (article D 324-3 du Code du tourisme).La décision de classement est prise par arrêté du préfet (article D 324-4 du Code du tourisme) (Inst. n° 21 et 22)."I'm in the réel régime, so it doesn't apply to me either. But I know a gite owner in the microbic régime who didn't believe it was necessary to have the G de F or préfecture classement to have the 71% abattement and was told by his tax office that from 2010 he does. So he is applying to the Préfecture for a classement now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VandA Posted June 20, 2010 Author Share Posted June 20, 2010 Thanks chaps/chappesses,I am applying for a 'subvention' from our Conseil Generale so will be classified via G de F. I guess this, along with registering with the Marie should tick the boxes necessary for the 71% abatement. The Conseil have been very helpful in providing info (and money!) in setting up a gite - guess that is the difference between the north and the south at the moment - they're in pretty short supply in our department! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maisonstournesol Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Hi, I read the French version and it refers to 2 categories: Gits and Maison de tourism. Obviously if there are 2 categories it means that they are not the same thing. However, what struck me as a loop hole (might not, have to investigate further - have appointment with tax people) is the fact that description of Maison de tourism, is described as a house, appartment or villa that is not habitation principal OR secondary home, and is for let. However, the 71% allowance might not reflect on seconder homes that are for let. These homes could be EXEMPT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimportequoi Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 maisontournesol, you obviously have a very limited understanding of French if that is how you understood the texte I quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I will be renting out studios as meublées de tourisme and am also a git myself.It's great to learn that I will be exempt from paying cotisations [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stella Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 when we set up our gite, the tax guy told us to declare the 29% since 71% is off for expenses and to not bother with the AE....just declare the income at tax time.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 I like the thinking!Declare only 29% of your turnover and you then only pay the 50% or 30% on that makes for a much better marginal tax rate.[:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 When I had a gite I declared it as a micro but it was classed as non professional as I had another income (much as A the I is referring to), it was not my main income so I did not pay any cotisations on the income I just paid a tiny tax amount each year and all I needed to do was declare it on my tax return. Does this option still exist as this would seem the most beneficial to the OP as it sounds like he is in the same position? My set iup was carried out by an accountant, he was useless for anything else but seemed to get this bit right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Yes I would appreciate some clarity on this as there seems (to me) to be two different ideas of how it's calculated. Was discussing this with in-laws the other day and still haven't found out the whole story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stella Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 I'll pull out the tax form papers again soon, but if you declare your portion, which will be 29% of the total income, this is what you will pay tax on. The other side (71%) goes to expenses, so if you have heavy start up costs or repairs, then , well too bad...however, if you have good year non-expense wise, then better for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Thank you Stella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrytlr Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hi all, I am now living permanently in France and for the time being at least my Gite income will be my only income here (my better half still earns a salary in the UK, and I have a small property related income in the UK still). I currently have only 1 Gite and am thinking of B&B in the main house too. However, we are in the process of renovating a building to create a second Gite so there are loads of expenses going out, which means there will be net outgoings for at least a couple of years - i.e. no profit. Any thoughts as to what the best tax regime to go for is? I am not even sure how much of the renovation costs can legitimately be offset against gite income for tax anyway...I must confess the simplicity of the microenterprise approach does appeal, but it would be foolish to pay tax unnecessarily, when the money could be used to grow the business instead (better for me and for France :-)).Any guidance gratefully received!!Cheers,Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilly Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Yes, I am in a similar position wanting to know the best Tax regime. I used to run a gite here which is adjoined to my house, i used to then just declare on my tax return yearly, simple, no paperwork, no accountant so easy, but weird no paperwork to prove it all, except of course for my tax returns, but then they just believed that you would be honest.But of course now it's all changed, so I am in the dark as to what to register as, do i have to pay for registration, do i need an accountant all this I dont know, because as you say so many different versions on the net i'm totally baffled. It will be below the 32,000E threshold for the year with no doubt, i work about 10 hours a week, so somebody said i dont need to pay cotisations, i presume i would be a micro bic non professionale, but i just don't know, am going to see the mairie to find out what to do to register, if its the chamber of commerce, that surely means you need to be siret registered with cotisations etc.Gosh I wish I had a magic wand!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon-the-censored Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Hope this helps - still valid this year. Sorry it was on a pdf so couldn't attach!Micro-BIC abatement:Starting from 1 January 2009, furnished letting activities under regime micro are subject to a threshold of € 32 000 and 50% abatement for expenses. (Until 2008, a threshold of € 76 300 and 71% abatement was applicable).However this provision does NOT apply (CGI art. 1407-1° to 3°) to gîte rural, meublés detourisme or chambres d’hôtes. Such self-catering holiday letting activities benefit from a €80 000 threshold (new threshold applicable from 2009) and 71% abatement. The property does not have to be located in a Zone de Revitalisation Rurale (listed communes located in rural areas offering tax advantages to new business). No services such as those offered byquasi-hotel activities (parahotellerie) have to be supplied with the lodging.SIRET and activity code NAF:A furnished letting activity should be registered with the local Centre des Impots (form P0i). You can download the form on-line. The CDI will circulate your details around all relevant departments.You must have a SIRET number and a code NAF 55.20Z Hébergement touristique et autre hébergement de courte durée. This code applies to seasonal letting of furnishedaccommodation. (Code 68.20A Location de logements applies to residential property lettings, empty or furnished).RCS registration:Registration with the Chamber of Commerce on the Registre du Commerce & des Sociétés (RCS) is optional. It makes the rental income subject to social levies and enables one to benefit from a health cover and contribute to an old age pension under the self-employed social security regime (RSI or Regime Social des Indépendants). This purpose will also be achieved under the new autoentrepreneur status (micro-social simplifié), under which you can declare quarterly your furnished holiday letting takings as 'vente de merchandise oufourniture de logement' and pay 12% social levies and 1% income tax (total 13% of takings).NB: RCS registration is necessary to benefit from the loueur en meublé professionnel tax status but it is not enough: annual receipts must be at least € 23000 and exceed your other net taxable activity income.Classification:A furnished holiday lettings property must be officially classified via the local mairie or registered with a commercial brand such as Gîte de France / Clevacances but this is not mandatory. It is also compulsory to declare your chambers d’hotes (B&B) to the mairie.What paperwork do you need to keep In order to be able to complete your income declaration you need to keep:- a note of all the rent your receive and the dates you rent out the property- a record of your expenses- sales receipts, invoices and bank statements- all these records for 3 years after the tax year concernedThe reform of the furnished letting tax regime, as set up in the draft Loi de finances for 2009 aimed to reduce the access to the status of loueur en meublé professionnel for the sake of the capping of tax avoidance opportunities. Incidentally (not to say insidiously) the reformwas going to have a significant impact on rural tourism as all the furnished holiday lettings subject to the micro-BIC tax regime would have seen their abatement for expenses reduced from 71% to 50% of the rental receipts.Fortunately, thanks to the mobilisation of the main federations for rural tourism and the intervention of certain deputies, the government went backward and amended the law to exclude gites ruraux, chambres d’hotes and meublés de tourisme from the reform. These will therefore continue to benefit from the 71% abatement.The final law is not perfectly clear as in order to define the furnished letting activitiesexcluded from the new regime, it refers to article 1407 of the Code General des Impots, which provides for communes located in a Zone de Revitalisation Rurale (ZRR) to vote for an exemption of taxe d’habitation for such letting activities. A quick reading could let one believe that only the furnished holiday lettings properties located in ZRR could benefit fromthe 71% abatement and that those outside would be subject to 50% abatement. However careful study of the parliamentary debates shows that this was clearly not the intention of the legislator. The reference to article 1407 is only to define the qualifying letting activities without taking into account their geographical location.On the other hand, the legislator does not refer either to parahotellerie, despite the insistence of Mme Christine Lagarde, the French Minister for the Economy, Industry and Employment in classifying gîtes as parahotellerie. Parahotellerie or quasi-hotel activities are characterised by the provision of at least 3 of the following services in addition to accommodation: regular supply of linen, meals or breakfast, reception desk, daily cleaning).Parahotellerie activities are not concerned by the furnished letting reform. Furnished holiday lettings are expressly excluded from the reform but no provision of services in addition to accommodation is required.Finally, what is essential is safe. gites ruraux, chambres d’hotes and meublés de tourisme under the micro-BIC regime will continue to benefit from a 71% abatement on their takings and not 50% as initially envisaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Very usefull and concise Simon, it summarises well the many other documents that I have. I will soon be discussing my future rental income, social charges and capital gains with a friend who is an expert comptable hence my gathering info on the subject, I like to be well informed before discussing things although this does vexe him as he is used to the French just meekly asking hios advice and believing 100% everything that he tells them even when in his words he is winging it and probably talking conneries [:D]Would you by any chance have the original French text of the article or preferably a link to it, assuming that it was an article and not your own summation? It will be far easier for me to discuss if it is in French and I could also forward him a copy before our meeting.What I particularly liked is that this one document could take the place of the others that I have gathered making the discussion easier.Well done you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon-the-censored Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Hi Chancer and thanks for that - it's a Cabinet Henderson Document which I also found very useful and VERY accurate - but it's only in English as far as I can tell - you could contact them for the original French version.....Here's the link (now I've found it!)http://www.cabinet-henderson.com/img/website_gite_and_furnished_letting_reform.pdfOnly major difference since Feb 2010 (I think!) is that you MUST also now make a declaration for Meubles de Tourisme (gites) on Cerfa Form 14004 (search and download) with your mairie.I also get great info re filling in your Income Tax declaration from the owners section of the Clevacances website - not sure if this link will work (may be password protected):http://proprietaires.clevacances.com/contenu/telechargement/fiscal/declarationfiscale2010.pdfSimon:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Jilly, I don't think you have to do anything different this year except complete a form 14004 and take it along to your Mairie. They will sign the form and give you a copy, that's all there is to it. Complete your tax forms the same as usual.You can download the form 14004 HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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