Deposits up front

[Coco]

An old chestnut I know, but we have recently had devis from two English builders, both properly registered but both asking for hefty upfront deposits. 

I would normally say no, but as our French builder broke his leg three weeks before his due start date we were grateful to even find anyone who could do the work this side of Christmas.  However, one is asking for 40% on commencement of work and the other is asking for 30% on signing of devis and 30% on commencement of work. 

Apart from our first fiasco with a British cowboy in France, we have always used French artisans and none have asked for money up front, even the plumber who installed a central heating system complete with boiler and fuel tank.

I think both of these deposits sound excessive, especially as the amount of materials needed in the first couple of weeks amounts to less than 10% of the overal cost.  What do you artisans think?  Should I negotiate this down on the basis that none of the local French artisans ask for money in advance, or walk away?

[Agenais]

We have paid 20% up front to our French builders, only a small job, but it was all laid out on the devis, 20%, then 40% on commencement and 40% on completion, seems a bit odd as it will all be done in the same day, so a cheque with the morning coffee and a cheque with the afternoon T then....   10 - 20% has always been our experience, just depends on the builders I guess and what materials they have to get up front perhaps.

[Val_2]

We have had to start asking for deposits upon starting jobs as we have had some very bad payers this year who think we are nothing more than credit brokers and in France the artisans just cannot wait around on broken promises that the cheque is in the post,we get charged 10% on late payments by us and we have to do the same to the clients. However, it is quite normal to ask for a good deposit on ordered items like joinery etc as once taken delivery of,you usually cannot return. We actually find that the french clients like to pay a deposit to secure the job.

[zeb]

C'est normale - at least in the Charente! 30% on or before commencement of works, then staged payments if the job's taking a few weeks of 40 to 50%, then the rest on completion. Makes sense, no-one wants to work for nothing - just make sure that what you keep back for completion of the works, is worth the builder coming back to complete! There are an awful lot of builders (all nationalities) who don't finish off as the 5 or 10% isn't worth it and they've factored that into their devi.

[Bobc]

"An old chestnut I know, but we have recently had devis from two English builders, both properly registered but both asking for hefty upfront deposits.

I would normally say no, but as our French builder broke his leg three weeks before his due start date we were grateful to even find anyone who could do the work this side of Christmas. However, one is asking for 40% on commencement of work and the other is asking for 30% on signing of devis and 30% on commencement of work.

Apart from our first fiasco with a British cowboy in France, we have always used French artisans and none have asked for money up front, even the plumber who installed a central heating system complete with boiler and fuel tank.

I think both of these deposits sound excessive, especially as the amount of materials needed in the first couple of weeks amounts to less than 10% of the overal cost. What do you artisans think? Should I negotiate this down on the basis that none of the local French artisans ask for money in advance, or walk away?"

Coco"

Walk away - one is asking for 40% at the start and the other 60% at the start. It would also be worth asking why they are available to start a new job before Christmas - any decent contractor will be booked up well in advance of this.

In our area, all of the French registered artisans that I work with ask for an initial payment of either 20% or 30% with the signed devis with the balance upon completion.

For a long project then an initial payment and then stage payments with a final balance of 10% retained until the client is happy with the work.

For my work, I also ask for payment for kitchen units/appliances, bathroom fittings/tiles, windows/doors, etc with the signed devis. Generally these are all non-returnable. I have been very lucky with good clients, but as Val2 has said there are exceptions.

For your work, I would be very wary of handing over any money - perhaps go and look at other work they have done in your area, or wait until a French artisan that you are comfortable with is available.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[chris pp]

I don't believe what I am reading here, I am an artisan and I never ask for money "up front", so far I have never had a problem being paid and usually expect some money every 4 to 6 weeks as the work proceeds including materials used.  Also my personal view is that if someone can start next week - why?  Sure, it's possible that they have had a cancellation.......

I would suggest you try to find someone via a recommendation.

Best, Chris

 

[Miki]

From South to North, with any work we have had done by French artisans we have never been asked for a deposit except on one occasion when it was a rather long and expensive job. All other works, including a 175,000 francs roof, were billed at the end.

We have a friend just up the road from us(a Brit)who has just had a 24,000€ roof completed by a French roofer and has yet to be billed !

I do have to agree with the builders that have replied on this matter though, if I was still in the game and going by what I have been hearing in the last couple of years or so, I would be asking for the material money upfront at least, from all but the ones I could trust.

I have to agree with a couple of the others Coco, that getting any decent Artisan at short notice has to be sheer luck, through one reason or another, or a dubious tradesman !

The difficulty many have, is the length of time waiting for a decent chap to become available to do the work and therein lies the temptation to go with the quickest one to hand.

[Macker]

I agree with Chris PP and Miki. I have never asked for a deposit up front and have never had a problem with getting paid. If you are confident that you are going to do a good job then you shouldn't need to ask for payment up front unless you are having to buy an exceptional amount of materials which, of course, can be the case with some trades. In my case a typical job might involve paying out 2 or 3k in materials but I simply have to factor this in to my cash flow in the knowledge that I will get it back plus my profit and labour within a certain period. In my experience this is the way that all the French artisans I have come in contact with work as well, I have never heard of any of them asking for money up front even when substantial material costs are involved.

Having said all that, I have recently been offered a big job that involves a lot of materials over quite a long period. When I suggested to the client (English) that he might put some money up front to cover the initial costs he got quite shirty and suggested that this was not normal practice. I was actually going to post a question on this section of the forum to see how others cope with this problem when I saw this thread. We have now settled amicably but I'd still be interested to find out what is the 'norm' for all the British artisans out there.

[Anton Redman]

[quote]An old chestnut I know, but we have recently had devis from two English builders, both properly registered but both asking for hefty upfront deposits. I would normally say no, but as our French bui...[/quote]

I have paid cash in hand in the UK to builders I trust blind, at the end of the week for work they have done. Twice in France I have offered to pay 50% up front in October only to be told  "Houses stay here but people go away"

All three times I have been treated fairly   

[Dick Smith]

Surely it also depends on whether or not there is a large cost for materials? I have always thought it was fair to pay a good proportion of that early on. Usually we have paid in thirds.

[james419]

We bought a blind for our patio and were asked for 30% on placing the order and paid the balane on completion - when we needed some plumbing and electrical work doing - I had to ask for the bill 4 months after the job was done to get matetrs tidied up - I then found out that our dutch neighbours waited 15 months for their bill from the same chap - his daughter who now works with him is a bit quicker.

Takes all sorts

James

[Coco]

Well as some have suggested, we've "walked away" from the original guy (who wanted 40%).  Silly man hadn't sent the devis as promised, so only has himself to blame!  The ones who wanted 30% on signing and 30% on commencement have agreed to 30% only as it's a short job with only cement as an outlay on their part. The vibes were getting worse and worse from the first guy and then when my husband saw him driving round in a top of the range BMW (as his SECOND car) it was the final straw!  We had already waited since last February for a builder and as the work has to be completed before our "season" starts in March we really do have to go with someone who can start now.  It's only a small job, probably a total of about 7 days over all, so can be slotted in between other jobs (just hope the slots aren't too far apart!!)

Despite what everyone says, I still find it strange to have to pay up front.  We've had French guys who have had to pay for expensive bathroom suites, a boiler, veluxes etc in the past and never asked for a sous until the work was complete.  However, at least we feel comfortable with the new guy - for now at least!  God, what a minefield

[Lizzie15]

Good luck- hope you don't have to wait for too long! We've never paid any money upfront on any work to our houses in the last 9 years!! Wonder if things are changing generally?The last lot of work we had done was only a couple of months ago-no deposits asked for-we've had work done costing thousands of euros,down to just a few hundred but never an upfront payment.

 

[GRT17]

Good luck Coco, hope all will go according to plan.

When we first started having work done by French, well established  artisans approx. 5 yrs ago, some asked for some money up front when presenting the devis, though they waived that aside and AFIK we have never paid anything in advance.

Now we know them all very well they seem to trust that we will pay up (which we do of course) even though we often disappear back to the U.K. while they are working.

 Bon courage and fingers crossed.

Gill

[boris]

when i was doing the stage at the chambre de metier the advice from all french professionals when asked was get a hefty deposit up front , and when i opened a business account at my bank i was told by the manager that an overdraft was not needed as i would be expected to get a deposit prior to starting work and an account at the local builders would give me 30 days credit.i have also sub contracted out work to a french artisan (27.000 for a roof recently)with no advance payment asked for.  i suppose the french in our area are very trusting,they assume all english are honourable like them,wait till they come accross a dodgy english client living in england that keeps them waiting a couple of months for their payment because "they want to check the work before they pay"depite whatever condition of payment is put on the devi.some of us come here on a shoestring do not want any debt and can not afford to worry about the next payment arriving on time ava . tva . ursaaf . maff . ram . etc all take their prevelements on time and there had better be enough money in the account when asked for or all sorts of problems arise.

[Bobc]

"I don't believe what I am reading here, I am an artisan and I never ask for money "up front", so far I have never had a problem being paid and usually expect some money every 4 to 6 weeks as the work proceeds including materials used. Also my personal view is that if someone can start next week - why? Sure, it's possible that they have had a cancellation.......

I would suggest you try to find someone via a recommendation.

Best, Chris

Trogoautoegocrat

http://www.planetepassion.com"

Another view - from working in the real world I am probably more cynical.

Last year I had a client that I carried out some small jobs for and was paid promptly. The clients have properties in France, the UK, New York and New Zealand. Based on the original work, I agreed to carry out aé lot of major work in 2006 on their French property and ordered a lot of kiln-dried oak in advance (without asking for up-front payment) for this project - (from another LF Forum member). In August this year, the clients announced that they were getting divorced and that the house in France was being sold.

Thanks to the good nature of Chris Head, I was able to cancel the delivery of oak for this project.

That aside, my 8 year old daughter (vet in the future!) was very impressed with your site - we have the cranes coming over us in the Autumn - wonderful!

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[Bobc]

"I don't believe what I am reading here, I am an artisan and I never ask for money "up front", so far I have never had a problem being paid and usually expect some money every 4 to 6 weeks as the work proceeds including materials used. Also my personal view is that if someone can start next week - why? Sure, it's possible that they have had a cancellation.......

I would suggest you try to find someone via a recommendation.

Best, Chris

Trogoautoegocrat

http://www.planetepassion.com"

Another view - from working in the real world I am probably more cynical.

Last year I had a client that I carried out some small jobs for and was paid promptly. The clients have properties in France, the UK, New York and New Zealand. Based on the original work, I agreed to carry out aé lot of major work in 2006 on their French property and ordered a lot of kiln-dried oak in advance (without asking for up-front payment) for this project - (from another LF Forum member). In August this year, the clients announced that they were getting divorced and that the house in France was being sold.

Thanks to the good nature of Chris Head, I was able to cancel the delivery of oak for this project.

That aside, my 8 year old daughter (vet in the future!) was very impressed with your site - we have the cranes coming over us in the Autumn - wonderful!

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[The Riff-Raff Element]

We still owe our plumber €7500 or so for work completed in July - we paid him 50% about two-thirds of the way through, more or less because we insisted . This is the third project he's done for us, so I suppose that there is an element of trust here, but he is always late in billing (late being a relative term as we have NEVER had a bill from an artisan earler than a month after they have finished). He employs about 12 people; cash flow must be an issue for him, so how can he manage to do this?

Ironically, he came around about six weeks ago with his daughter, future son-in-law and the son-in-law's parents to have a look at our properties with a view to taking one or more as guest accomodation for the wedding next May. They took all three in the end and HE has sent US a deposit cheque (which I have shamelessly cashed) without bothering to include the bill at the same time.

[Georgina]

We were going to pay somebody a deposit up front but was advised against this by a French friend, unless it was a special order. He is definitely knowledgeable about these things as he has had many houses built and uses lots of builders.

We did have difficulty transferring money (mostly because of various bank accounts and ruddy clearing days) when we were in England and in retrospect would have preferred to have been in credit with the builders. It's a two way thing.

I think it's all about trust really and of course, if the builder needs the money.  As my friend said the house stays there.  Currently we owe someone about E3000 and have not seen him or heard from him in a week!

Georgina

[Agenais]

our two recent bills from artisans have been on the door mat the morning after..........must be because Papa Noel is due next week !! 

[benson]

 The same was said to us at the stage CdM

It must vary from dept to dept

.  If the builder is well established ie built up a busniess over many many years or owns a fairly large company he maybe he could afford to purchase materials etc himself but many of us can not.  We were told a deposit up front is the norm with stage payments (unless the job is very small)  All the work we have had done by French Artisans has worked this way. and this is the way we work to.  It works well and we have never received complaint.  It is  very frustraiting if working for a client who does not live near (abroad) by waiting for payments sometimes many weeks after completion.    I sometimes feel that some people think that money builders make goes straight into their pocket as profit. We have social charges, bills, a young family to raise and a renovation of or own to finance amongst other things. Just like everyone else.

I understand that people are wary of parting with money to strangers but if you have checked that the artisan is registered etc and you have signed a Devis you have a legal contract should anything go wrong.  Artisans to are wary of going into debt purchasing materials incase the client then dissapears or changes their mind. Reccommendations help to build trust and confidence on both sides.

[Anton Redman]

<< I understand that people are wary of parting with money to strangers but if you have checked that the artisan is registered etc and you have signed a Devis you have a legal contract should anything go wrong. >>

It will be a cool day in Hell if I ever agree to this. I will prove I have the money available and will make arrangements for weekly stage payments on evidence of completion of work,even given the joys of French banking you can sort that out. In a country in which even if you win a legal action you do not receive costs and who in  their right minds wants Specific Performance as a remedy against somebody who has not started work on time.

I will pay a deposit for items which are specefically commisioned and have a reduce second hand value not otherwise. I have not purchased a Ford since they 'renegotiated' AKA the Anne Robinson word on an Escort Mexico in the early 1970s. Trust is a two way street.

[benson]

'I will prove I have the money available and will make arrangements for weekly stage payments on evidence of completion of work'

You will begin stage payments AFTER completion of work??? I dont think that would work!!! Payment in FULL after completion maybe!!

Another solution maybe is to pay for the materials yourself before commencement of work and be billed for labour only after completion. 

[Russethouse]

I suspect Anton means that as soon as he can 'see' (possibly by photo ? )each stage is completed he will send a stage payment - seems sensible to me.

[Bobc]

As ever on this Forum some realistic comments and others

"The same was said to us at the stage CdM

It must vary from dept to dept

.  If the builder is well established ie built up a busniess over

many many years or owns a fairly large company he maybe he could afford

to purchase materials etc himself but many of us can not.  We were

told a deposit up front is the norm with stage payments (unless the job

is very small)  All the work we have had done by French Artisans

has worked this way. and this is the way we work to.  It works

well and we have never received complaint.  It is  very

frustraiting if working for a client who does not live near (abroad) by

waiting for payments sometimes many weeks after

completion.    I sometimes feel that some people think

that money builders make goes straight into their pocket as profit. We

have social charges, bills, a young family to raise and a renovation of

or own to finance amongst other things. Just like everyone else.

I understand that people are wary of parting with money to strangers

but if you have checked that the artisan is registered etc and you have

signed a Devis you have a legal contract should anything go

wrong.  Artisans to are wary of going into debt purchasing

materials incase the client then dissapears or changes their mind.

Reccommendations help to build trust and confidence on both sides.

Benson (23)"

In our area of France it is normal for all registered artisans to ask

for an initial payment of between 20/30% with the signed devis and the

balance upon completion. Any specific special order items such as

tiles, kitchen units, bathroom fittings, etc, etc, need to be paid

up-front.

If this is specified in advance then the client has the choice to go with this or choose another artisan.

There is no need for any artisan to act as a ‘finance house’ for the client.

"It will be a cool day in Hell if I ever agree to this. I will prove I

have the money available and will make arrangements for weekly stage

payments on evidence of completion of work,even given the joys of

French banking you can sort that out. In a country in which even if you

win a legal action you do not receive costs and who in  their

right minds wants Specific Performance as a remedy against somebody who

has not started work on time."

An interesting idea - proving that you have the money available and actually paying it to the artisan are two different matters.

"I will pay a deposit for items which are specefically commisioned and

have a reduce second hand value not otherwise. I have not purchased a

Ford since they 'renegotiated' AKA the Anne Robinson word on an Escort

Mexico in the early 1970s. Trust is a two way street."

I am not sure I understand this - are you saying that you would only

pay a deposit on something custom made for your property if it had some

resale value? I am thinking that over the last few years I have done

work on barn conversions that have required custom made double-glazed

panels - these are specific to the job and it would be very unlikely

that they would have any resale value. For this work I have asked the

clients to pay up-front before I have ordered them.

I can think of other examples:

Anything made-to-measure from Lapeyre

Italian floor tiles ordered from the factory

Hand-made terracotta floor tiles order from the local supplier

Custom made oak verandas ordered from the supplier

Oak timbers cut to size from the local supplier

"Another solution maybe is to pay for the materials yourself before

commencement of work and be billed for labour only after completion."

Not a road for any registered artisan to go down - only used around

here by ‘artisans’ working on the black. As they are not registered for

TVA they ask the client to open an account at a local builders

merchants and they then just bill for the labour element - usually in

cash or in a sterling cheque.

It would also be interesting to see how much of the materials that are

paid for are used on their project and how much is diverted elsewhere.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux