Quillan Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 [quote]Do we all know the pitfalls? I don't see why we should and we all have to start somewhere, and for many, LF magazine or website might well be a starting point. If "we all know" everything, nobody wo...[/quote]Thanks for that it was just what I was going to repeat as I mentioned this earlier. I also mentioned that I too have employed a person on 'the black' and why I would not do so in future.The reputable English I have met here who are registered did in fact work for a year to before they became registered, but as an employee of a registered company. What people need to be protected against is people like that chap a few years back who was running round the north of France taking money of people left right and centre either not doing the work or doing it to a very bad standard. There was no comeback on him and people were left in a very bad way. He even advertised in several magazines including LF I believe before he was found out.Do not assume, as I said before, that ALL people know about SIRET numbers etc and the consequences of employing people on the black, I didn't and it took me around a year to find out. I don't want to control anyone I just want it clearly stated that there are implications, people should be aware of them after which they can make their own decision based on the facts presented. By not telling people you are depriving them of that basic fundamental right. If after knowing the facts they continue and it all goes tits up then they have no other to blame but themselves.What I am lobbying for is freedom of choice based on facts, not fiction, but if people are not aware of these facts how can they make that choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesFlamands Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Unfotunately, employing someone with a valid Siret and insurance doesn't protect you from being robbed or poor quality work. If you are employing a builder you must, as you would in the UK, make some checks on the quality of his work and reputation. He must have a valid Siret and insurance - if you don't check this you are risking a heavy fine apart from all the other good reasons mentioned in other posts.In my experience, far to many people are looking for an instant solution to their property problems in France and will generally, employ the first person they come across without making any checks. Some are unaware of the rules and some are definately trying to avoid them.It has only recently become law that all advertising has to include a siret/RCS no. This was introduced as part of the campaign to clamp down on illegal workers especially in the building trade. Those who have been caught working illegally and those employing them have been severely punished by way of example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Absolutely right Charles. I think some of the worst examples of overcharging and dodgy practices I have seen since I have been in France have been by legally-registered tradesmen (French as well as British).One problem is that by insisting that no advertisements appear without a SIRET number, it is implicit that unregistered businesses are unacceptable, and hence the magazines could, by implication, be seen to be endorsing or recommending those whose advertising they do accept. Customers must check up on any business - French registered or not - before committing to, or parting with, large amounts of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 I think there may be an opportunity for Archant to get some good publicity if they could get the other UK publishers of French interest publications (and possibly forum owners) on board to form an association, (rather like blue flag beaches ) - allow just one ad without a Siret (in case it genuinly is applied for)and then advertisers MUST have a number. Don't forget that this will involve a serious amount of work for someone.....would ANY commercial enterprise want to fund that ?However once you start that are you not going down a rocky road ? What about 'agents commercial' or even B&Bs......is it going to be the thin edge ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinkfluff<P>Big Wet Drops and Lots of Them, Are a Sure Sign of Rain!<P> Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Everyone is different and everyone has different thoughts on things myself I think there are enough rules here without more. But looking it from the magazines perspective why should they loose revenue? I dont think they will entertain it and why should they as they are in the market to make money and whilst this forum is a nice service I should not think it will earn them much revenue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 [quote]I agree with all that. Some 'Artsans' are aware of the rules and sometime create false Siret numbers. You can check that a number is valid (for the services offered) by typing in the name at www.inf...[/quote]OK so the company name and Siret number of the firm I have used that advertises in Living France does not show up on this site - what do I do now after they have made a botched job and seem to be using a false registration number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeb Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 You could try this sitehttp://www.cofacerating.fr/portail/recherche_entreprise_inter/recherche_entreprise.asp?IP=ECHOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 [quote]OK so the company name and Siret number of the firm I have used that advertises in Living France does not show up on this site - what do I do now after they have made a botched job and seem to be usin...[/quote]Perhaps the magazine could check the siret number before entry in to the adds as well as asking for a copy of their documents by fax. Only takes a couple of key strokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Really - what else would you like them to do - personally try out each service to see if its up to scratch ? Sorry Chris - but I think this is just going too far - the people who are looking to get work done are over 21 and have managed to get themselves to France, I'm sure they are able to sort out who they employ too. A note on the relevant pages as mentioned before should do the job - remember the KISS principal Even if it 'only a couple of keystrokes' and the person comes up registered as say 'Macker' would, (in another thread,) do you then want them to add 'only registered to do X' as well ?You'll be tell us you moved to France to get away from 'nanny Britain' next !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 Perhaps you can kill two birds with one stone. As well as a couple of lines to say that you should always use registered and insured people that readers should check by using the website as previosly mentioned. This may result in scaring unregistered people off as well as giving the reader a way of checking for themselves. Probably taking the satement from two to three lines.Moving to France is like buying a boat, getting married or having kids. Doing the move is easy it's the rest thats difficult and expensive . Your right, keep it simple with a brief but factual statement making people aware then it's up to them. I always find it amusing when I listen to Brits round were I live and the mess they end up with. If you ask them if they would do this or that sort of thing back in the UK they immediatly say "no of course not, don't be stupid". A classic has to be buying a house via the web without ever seeing it just photo's, yes really it's happened. So there they are in a different country with different laws and some of them can hardly speak a word of the language (most thinking French is the same as English except you shout instead of speak it) doing what they would never dream of doing back in the UK and then wonder why it's all gone wrong.Mind you with some it would not matter if you wrote three brief lines or a whole artical they will ignore sound advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 [quote]Really - what else would you like them to do - personally try out each service to see if its up to scratch ? Sorry Chris - but I think this is just going too far - the people who are looking to get w...[/quote]Quote "... the people who are looking to get work done are over 21 and have managed to get themselves to France, I'm sure they are able to sort out who they employ too."Yes I am over 21. I have owned my own company in UK employing up to 25 people at one time and employed many more over the years for building or other works.I have my eyes wide open and have come across most scams and know exactly where I am in the UK system.Until you have been in a new country for some time and built contacts and local knowledge you have to deal with people on a basis of trust, luckily I only gave these 'builders' a part of the total works I require. Being the cynic I am I even have photos of them at work, the registration numbers of vehicles etc. Sadly they have broken my trust in them and it seems supplied false information.I do now have the telephone numbers of all the subcontractors they used and not all is lost.Surely LF should at least check Siret numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Why ? - you are the consumer - its up to you !Say Macker advertised, he has a siret, so that would be OK, BUT he says he does other work that is not mentioned on his registration, its up to the consumer to work out if they want him to do other work on that basis.If LF said that they checked every number it could give a false sense of security, as I think Will has mentioned. There is also an issue of practicality - you say you have been in business in the Uk so you know that in this instance 'time is money' someone would have to pay for the extra time taken checking out siret numbers and the queries arising, who ? The advertiser ? The person purchasing the magazine ? Thats a competitive market these days.Extra costs would have to be passed on and that could have a negative effect on Archant revenue. If its 'just a couple of keystrokes why can't the consumer do it themselves?I think a notice in the publications is by far the most practical idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted August 30, 2005 Author Share Posted August 30, 2005 Come on Gay we are making a few assumptions here.You are assuming that people in the UK or France who have just started out know what a SIRET number is and how to check it and understand what a artisan is.The truth is many don't and some who buy the magazine may not even have a computer let alone internet access. They may of course not have sufficiant French to understand the website to know where to put the SIRET number in.I think the 'warning' at the start of the clasified section on artisans is the way to go along with information to enable them to check SIRET numbers would go a long way although personally I would like to see each ad with a verified SIRET number attached. As to who would pay for the time to do it I would say the advertiser. If the magazine is getting to a high number of readers as a advertiser I would look at it from an exposure point of view and not at the cost of my advert. A couple of quid more would make little difference. I used the website to check my SIRET number the other day and it took all of 30 seconds but then I know what I am looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Aren't these Siret numbers mentioned in any of the numerous books about moving to France ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 Quillan has mentioned the phrase 'cowboys'.We are all aware of the phrase. We've all seen the tv programmes.I wouldn't employ someone to carry out, say, building work without asking around for a reccomendation or two first: SIRET or not. Sorry, but a few of the posts here smack of the 'I'm all right Jack' mean spiritedness that helped me on the way to moving out here in the first place. To be fair some have raised important and relevant issues related to quality and legality, I just don't believe that the website should insist on a SIRET number - nor - I'll bet - do the majority of users want to employ registered workers exclusively, for reasons of choice, availability, etc. I can understand people paying up tax geting wound up by 'black' workers - there's a guy near us like that - but if they themselves are booked up six months in advance (or longer in his case) then what's their beef?? I believe (as others have stated here) it's a truism that most black workers go 'legit' ASAP. One quick anecdote:A mechanic friend of mine went on the short course you have to attend to set up a business over here; they introduced a guy from the 'tax office' who asked the participants if they plan to employ people (or do some work) on the black....hands remained firmly under the desk...His thoughts on the response? 'In that case - you'll all go under before the year's out!'The French economy - regardless of the media blurb - would collapse without the 'black' element. Yes, really.Crap system - work around it - always get references or better still check out the advertisers yourself.I see no problem in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonyf Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 There is some good advice in this post about not falling into the 'clandestine' trap.However, Living France and French property News is full of advertisement from illegal businesses working to the deriment of those who have bothered to register etc.It is not enough for LF and FPN to merely say, we let people make up their own minds. They actually profit from these illegal practices.Try to write an article for LF or FPN on the subject and see if they print it.... er, no chance.They are as culpable as the clandestines themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 >>>Try to write an article for LF or FPN on the subject and see if they print it.... er, no chance.<<<Have you tried ?The fact is that Archant are a UK company and their magazines are published in the UK so they comply with UK law. As far as I can see if they bought in a rule like this (no Siret - no ad) it would be on a voluntary basis. They would risk losing business, and while its all very well for Chris to say 'make the advertisers pay more to cover the costs of checking' you have got to HAVE advertisers in the long term to actually charge. The market is competative....As I have said before, just think about the telesales dept - an established customer says he is registered in the UK and doesn't have to be registered in France and quotes some reason why - it would be a nightmareA note alerting potential customers to the relevance of Siret numbers is one thing, but I fail to understand why some of you seem to want Archant to act like Social Services. They are a commercial organisation. In an ideal world - yes....but we do not live in a ideal world. (And in an ideal world perhaps Sirets would be abolished, or the French recognise more qualifications gained in other countries etc)If you know someone who is working illegally, dob them in - or perhaps you haven't got the stomach for it ?If you want to 'sell' this idea, the simpler you keep it the more appealing it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonyf Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Yes, LF and FPN are UK entities and apparently comply with UK law.However, it is true to say, is it not, that they openly promote and advertise Illegal Activity in another country which could have catastrophic consequences for their readers/consumers.The practicalities for the staff of the advertising department is not relevant. FPN and LF have placed themselves in this market place. The fact is that, as a consequence, it requires care and attention and FPN and LF should act accordingly.If you think it is enough to say "we comply with UK law and that is it, business is business". It stinks.Given that they placed themselves as an information medium, are taking no steps whatsoever to protect their readership, I wonder if they fail in a duty of care to a victim who employs one of their illegal clients?OH WELL, BUSINESS IS BUSINESS. shame about the legal businesses in France suffering as a result Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Maybe it should be required that each advert should have a “Siret Number:” at the bottom. Where the advertiser is either not registered or does not provide one, the advert would have “Siret Number: ” (or similar). That way people would know what they are getting responding to an advert and there would be no requirement for anybody to act as the “registration police”.(People who were registered would then provide their siret number as they would not want to be shown as “Not registered” – as this is a bit of a negative on any advert).Just a thoughtIan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I understand what you mean.I'd 'like' to hear some genuine anecdotes of businesses going under (particularly those who run services relevant to the ads on LF) due to the 'llegal activity' of unregistered workers/ventures. I can only use those local to myself as a point of referrence - and they are swamped with work, so that argument doesn't add up for me.Also, I seem to remember the small ads (in the UK) local rag/evening news carrying ads from unregistered workers - there was no furore over this. If it was a small job you might take a chance; if not you waited for a reccomendation or at least checked that their work was insured: that's common sense. Also most businesses rely on these reccomendations - so bad workmanship ,for instance, is in nobody's best interests. Not that it doesn't occur, and granted it's terrible when it does, but let's not get carried away.The only ads I'd like to see banned are the obvious scams: dieting pills, loans secured on your home at 65% apr for the over 85's etc....Trouble is there all in the Daily Mail.Write to them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesFlamands Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I don't think anyone is suggesting that registered businesses have gone under due to the work all going to illegal businesses.All employers and potential employers need to be aware of the rules in France in terms of only employing registered businesses, as they are risking prosecution if they employ someone illegally (and ignorance of the law is no defence here, as in the UK). FPN and LF in these circumstances could be considered to be negligentAs a registered business my order book has no bearing on how I feel about those who choose to work illegally. If I were to lose a contract to an illegal operator, I wouldn't hesitate to report them to the authorities. Native French Artisans wouldn't hesitate anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 I understand and respect your views Bones BUT the problem as I have said three times now is that not everyone knows or has access to a method of checking SIRET numbers. Likewise as I said at the beginning they often are not aware of the problems and possible penalties linked to employing a person who is not registered, insured and working on the black. To be honest I took some of the comments from this forum a few years back as being a bit 'Oh yea I can't see that ever happening' but then as my French improved and I started reading French newspapers, especially local ones, I was alarmed at how many people had been 'done' and the penalties they inured. Don't forget under French law it's not just the person who is doing the work but the employer also that gets fined and possibly put in prison.Let’s play out a possible scenario. I employ a guy, not registered and working on the black, to repair some tiles (say half a dozen) on my roof. He is married and has a couple of young kids. He is the only earner in the family as his wife stays at hope to look after the kids.Whilst on the roof he slips and falls off, falls and breaks his back or whatever and becomes a paraplegic. He has no insurance (he's not registered so can't get any) so the government comes after me to pay his hospital bills. Because he can't work anymore his wife has to look after him, just when she was thinking of going back to work as the kids were about to start school. I now have to support his family for the rest of his life. My own insurance of course will not cover me so it comes out of my pocket. My house has to be sold, he gets the money, if I am working, the state deducts a fixed sum to pay him every month etc, etc. Basically I loose everything just for half a dozen tiles and because I did not know it was illegal to employ a person on the black who is not registered in France.Is this an extreme scenario, well no, you only have to read the papers. The last one happened two months ago in Montpelier.I believe it is Archants moral obligation to point out the pitfalls of employing people on the black who are not properly registered. I can see that it's not possible for them to police this but if they at least put some sort of warning at the beginning of the section where people will advertise at least those reading the adverts know and can make their own informed decision as to who they employ.As to people getting away with it and seeming to be doing very well to boot, well are they? I bet they get discovered at some stage, be it tomorrow, next week, next month, next year or whatever. Life has taught me that the longer you go on the more likely your luck runs out and trust me they will get caught at some point.Somebody said why not report them. Well I have paid a lot of money to get my business 100% legal and believe me if somebody starts up doing the same thing but on the black I would not hesitate to shop them. It would make me more French as it's a national pastime over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Crikey - what a terrible story! Was that just a guy having some tiles replaced on his private home, i.e. nothing to do with, say, a B+B?If so, is it up to the private customer to have proof of the artisan's SIRET number before having any work whatsoever carried out on their home or garden? If you get a fake SIRET number from an artisan decorating your private home - and he has an accident - can you use that faked document as a defence? He's surely misled you in that case. Is the story you mentioned really so typical? If so - why do you think it made the papers? As for you reporting anyone who offers the same services that you offer - and you find out that they are (as yet, at least) unregistered - would you not consider the fact that they are, perhaps, crippled by the system and just trying to give themselves a 'leg up'? Perhaps that was what the guy on the roof was attempting - and he ended up literaly crippled. Are you happy with the system as it stands? Are you not more concerned by, say, outrageous minister's wages and perks?One could write a letter of complaint to their MP complaining about something worthwhile in the time it takes them to grass someone up starting out.Come to think of it, you made the point that the client had to pay for the black worker's earning losses and medical bills - who demanded that? That's the government passing their liability on to a citizen who pays their taxes. Protect yourself by exercising your right to dissent! I dunno - if you genuinely believe that people coming over here are going to be unaware of the law and end up in the same boat as the family having their roof done: fair enough. But that is indicative of a very messed up system - and I for one completely understand why most unregistered workers are just that: totaly insufficient social security, huge unemployment, crippling taxes for small businesses etc etc etc.I do hope that you would enquire as to why an unregistered competitor isn't putting up the cash to go registered before reporting them - they just may be facing a situation beyond your immediate comprehension. You might be peeing on a genuine person's dreams. Or you might find out that you are reporting a no good lazy pee taker! At least you'll know. Fair enough if you have a serious competitor who isn't registered for years because it suits him - but that's hardly the scenario you're describing is it?In times of economic gloom we always look to the disadvantaged minority to place the blame - that's cause the established media tell us to: I know it's a wider point, but it's a truism, and it's depressing to hear people spending so much time and effort falling for the same old tricks. I'd like to make the point - at last - that not all of the above is directed as a rant against the views of Quillan. Okay some of it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I may not agree with Chris about the scope of Archants responsibility ( I think the simplest way is a note at the start of the relevant section) but Bones, I sure do agree about the French being happy to 'dob' in anyone they think is not registered and should be.In practice I think many French employing artisans have it both ways - they pay part 'on the system' and part in cash.....Of course if you are caught no doubt the penalties are the same ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 - but Bones, I sure do agree about the French being happy to 'dob' in anyone they think is not registered and should be. -So out of all the soapbox blarney I just posted - you picked out the one point I didn't actualy make?? Unless of course you were agreeing with a point you think I was making, in which case: yes I was right about that wasn't I.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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