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Are we a builder's worst nightmare?


Monika

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I often wonder what client constitutes "the worst nightmare for a builder" and wonder if ours crinches each time he receives an e-mail or telephone call. Is it common for a client to get even more impatient the closer to the finish a project is? During the starting stage of our renovation/build when nothing happened for 3 month we sent about 5 e-mails and called twice. Now we are on the interior work and have not heard anything for 4 weeks, we have sent 3 e-mails and called once. Do you think we are a "nightmare"?  
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I think that the companies have so much work on that they tend to spread themselves very thinly.

From what I have seen, it seems that those people who are prepared to chivvy up the builders get it done.  This probably goes against the grain for laid back polite Brits at first. But as you are finding out,  if you don't do this, then they take that to mean you are patient and not in a great hurry and they will deal with you as and when.

 

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I 'm going to speak from the other side of things in that we have found increasingly,some british clients start out fine and say "yes everything onthe devis is OK and we have the money to do the job" and then find as we start to invoice when stages are complete, they show their true colours and start to whinge and whine about paying,they havn't got enough money in France and other excuses and that is when artisans do dissapear as they will refuse to continue work onthe same site. I really feel that some people think the artisans here are loaded and are credit brokers and have no idea of what the true cost of working is really like. One job currently which the clients wanted to be top quality has now degenerated into them buying crap fitments from B....D.... which we will not install or guarantee just to save themselves money which in the long run will have to be replaced very quickly once they are used. I am in no way saying that the poster of the thread is behaving like this but those that do,know who they are!!! I've got one woman currently who has had her invoice for works completed for nearly two months and is still not paying despite saying the cheque is in the post,well,I shall now get tough with her and start the legal process to recover it and she will end up paying more than ever.
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Monika

 I strongly advise getting your team to agree to send you a weekly up-date so that you know what is happening and can influence any issues arising from the work.

 We hired an English architect, living reasonably locally to our house to supervise our renovation, as we would not be in the country. He had retired from England to live in his long term holiday home. As he tells it - he had been asked to ‘help out’ so many Brits that he decided to set-up again in France. He is a pleasant fellow and certainly seemed to take on board our concerns to renovate, whilst retaining the most beautiful features of our house. So far so good.

 What he did not tell us was that he was going to sub-contract our project to a young French architect, who works over an hour away from him. Unfortunately, whilst this person is charming, she seems neither to have experience of renovations nor indeed had any idea why anybody would want to do one. She also had the French professional person’s attitude that as a French professional she knows best and clients should not question any aspect of her plans. An unfortunate aspect in the working relationship between the two architects was that our concerns about retaining the most beautiful features were not transmitted from the former to the latter.

It took a year from purchase to agree plans, send out the devis (to a local team we had sourced) and for them to start work. We did insert a change once we saw the plans (six months down the line) by insisting that the three upstairs bedrooms should all be en-suite.

 During the year between hiring the architect and the renovation starting communications were erratic until the English architect agreed to email us a weekly up-date, (these stopped once the renovation started).

At the end of this month the renovation should be (just about) finished. The artisans have been great in that they turn up when they say they will and in the quality of work. Ok, the building work all seems to take a long time but this is rural France and provided the work was complete by May, we are alright .

 Our major upset came when the architects allowed the artisans to shift proposed new walls so that rather than leaving the beautiful old trusses

clear they are now partly integrated into the new walls. This despite our oft-repeated concern that the renovation should showcase

these beams, also despite us having signed-off on plans that showed the walls being a foot away from the wall. The architects

did not see fit to consult us about this change.

 

(Sorry the paragraph spaces gone wonky - give me back my Mac).

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[quote user="Benjamin"]Val_2
You and many of the other artisans who answer these sort of queries sound as if you're in a very stressful trade. Can't you find something a little bit more laid back?
Whistles [Www]


Benjamin
[/quote]

Anyone who is self employed and has to deal with late payers gets stressed !

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Yes, but this wasn't a thread about late paying Brits!

Don't worry Monika, you certainly are not the only one who has to chase your builder!

The guy (English) who we employed when we first bought the cottage to put in concrete floor and build a dividing wall had about 5 or more other jobs on the go. This was really frustrating for MOH who was camping out here and had agreed to labour for the builder, as the guy just turned up to "lay a few more blocks" at odd times a couple of days a week. Took far longer than we first thought, but it seems to be the norm.

A friend recently employed a French electricien/plombier who was the only one in that particular village and had responsibility for the repairs on the HTMs (sp?) as well as loads of other work. This really held her renovation up and she was phoning him constantly, often at 7.30 am as the other builders on the job were being held up by him. His wife, and I don't blame her, got really p****d off but, it was the only way to get hold of him!

Some builders take deposits when their devis are accepted then "to keep folks happy" do a day here and a day there. Other builders do and finish one job then go on to the next.

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What do you suggest then Benjamin after 32years in the trade and a fair few years off retirement with teenage/young adults still in education to support? We can't all lay back in the sun and live off our savings/house sale money/pension when we are in the real world you know. Building and agriculture here in Brittany IS a very stressful trade to be in with high cotisations and very little pension at the end of the day even with 40years payments, to look forward to and don't say go back to the UK because that would be impossible after years here.
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Its great to hear from you all and certainly puts my mind at rest, that we are not that bad! Thank you also to Val to hear the other side of the story. I must admit I pay our installments very religiously on time or even before, for fear that a delay in paying could lead to further delay.
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[quote user="Monika"]I often wonder what client constitutes "the worst nightmare for a builder" and wonder if ours crinches each time he receives an e-mail or telephone call. Is it common for a client to get even more impatient the closer to the finish a project is? During the starting stage of our renovation/build when nothing happened for 3 month we sent about 5 e-mails and called twice. Now we are on the interior work and have not heard anything for 4 weeks, we have sent 3 e-mails and called once. Do you think we are a "nightmare"?  [/quote]

Nope,his only nightmare is a client who does not pay. But you will pay, one way or another, for yr nagging. [:P]

John

not

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Val_2

I did try to add a smilie after my comment but I've clearly not been following all the recent advice on how to do it properly. The posting was a bit tongue in cheek but maybe it's time to take a bit more of a professional view on this subject of getting invoices paid on time.

There have been a few threads recently about getting work done by properly registered companies and not employing people "on the balck". Have you ever thought how someone who has worked in finance and credit control might view your problems in getting invoices paids on time? Your qualifications for doing this are based upon 32 years in the trade but many people have professional qualifications to enable them to undertake this task. If you are still getting problems aftere all those years could it be because those that have taken training in this discipline  are actually very good at their jobs ,or to put it more bluntly, what they have learned is paying off.

Sure, most small businesses have to be multi tasking but have you ever thought of selling your sales ledger to a factoring company (do they have those in France ?) or even getting your accountant, who will no doubt be able to point out to slow payers what could realistically happen to them in the courts, to deal with the really persistent non-payers.

I think you might also find that the people who are laying back in the sun have actually been where you are today and are now reaping the rewards of their hard work and not neccesarily living off some perceived "windfalls".

Benjamin

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Leading on from what Benjamin has suggested, what about putting a contract in place which would safeguard the likes of both Monika and Val-2.  These of course are largely used on the larger schemes in UK.  My husband is a quantity surveyor and carries out small tenders for his private clients [:$](yes on the black but it is in the UK: A bit of pin money shall we say for his saturday afternoon betting) to which he always writes in a contract.
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Like you Monika we were not resident for our major renovations, our builder, plumber and electricion all had paragraphs added stating when each phase would be done and the overall completion date together with payment on these timings if work completed satisfactorily and penalities to them and us if not.

End result, completed on time, plumber was ahead of time, all happy, they got paid we got our house finished on time.

They were in no doubt that we would have carried out the penality clause and kept our side of the deal and paid promptly. Money in pockets really does focus the mind.

The builder was so good we are waiting for him to do further work for us;- at the price the Devis was issued for the new work 18 mths ago.

There would be no need for posts like this if builders and clients alike kept to deadlines given, but alas...........

I do hope that you and Val2 get current problems resolved quickly.

 

Regards

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  • 10 months later...
[quote user="Benjamin"]Val_2

I think you might also find that the people who are laying back in the sun have actually been where you are today and are now reaping the rewards of their hard work and not neccesarily living off some perceived "windfalls".

Benjamin

[/quote]

Or they might equally have been employed as a widget counter in their local council for 35 years, counting each day, dreaming of retirement [:D]

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The tongue in cheek worst nightmares for Builders top ten

1) Ever moving goalposts

2)Got the sums wrong (also known as S*1t we got the sums wrong! send a man and a dog and hope they cry off)

3) Architects (Generally) all flying butresses and trying to build the next Millau.

4) Quanity Surveyors (Builders know these guys are in the know...they know how much things cost...how unreasonable is that?)

5) Weather (Weather they show up seems dependent on it, in fairness in France this seems to be less of a problem)

6)Friendly Clients who want to know everything (Builders are not care in the community professionals)

7) Other trades in the way 'nuff said really.

8)A defined and resourced Programme of works (Really should be number one but seeing it there made me come over all funny so I hid it down here hoping you wouldnt see it)

9)Having no excuse

10) Organisation any kind of organisation...

 

 

 

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The people who are lying back in the sun are probably CORGI registered heating engineers in the UK.  Last night I heard of one who  had  quoted on house in Bracknell to fit new boiler and some rads .....his labour charge was £500...per day.....its my neighbors daughter .....and  is not bothered if she accepts or not he has so much work .
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The only amazing thing about your post Frederick is that you think that's a lot! We recently had to replace a gas central heating boiler as an emergency, the guy and his mate came on a Sunday, had to remove our cloakroom toilet in order to get the existing boiler off the wall, fitted the boiler, flushed the system, fitted thermostatic valves to all rads but one, refitted a new toilet. It cost £1400 and we were thrilled as the Gas board had quoted double a year ago! I'm about 15 miles from Bracknell.
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Russethouse that works out a very cheap job.

I reckon if I tipped up on a Sunday in my plumbing days with a mate (Who needs to be paid also and an electrician) I would have wanted at least the same probably a little more dependent upon the quality of the boiler fitted.

When you consider a prope job would likely involve.

Isolate services and drain down old heating system,

Remove old toilet, adapt incoming service install service valve and new pan connector,

Remove old Boiler and flue.

Carry out Building electrical and pipework adaptations for new Boiler.

Supply and install new boiler make up services and controls.

Purge system with clean water twice.

Supply and introduce water treatment / corrosion inhibitor

Circulate cold

Purge gas and test fire boiler.

Vent run and balance heating system.

Test and certificate gas soundness and electrical safety

Supply and fix new toilet bowl seat and cistern,

 

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We supplied the toilet and seat - I popped down to Wickes and bought them ( not being able to find a toilet seat that had ALL the fixings in the box I went to the counter - the assistant came to the pile of boxes - went about 8 down took out the fittings I needed and then sealed up the box and put it back in the pile !!! I resisted the temptation for a grumpy old woman moment !)

Anyhow the plumber wasn't happy with the way the system was working and came back the next morning with the electrician to 'test' the pump which he replaced, we offered to pay extra but he refused and said that he had given us a price to get the system up and working and that was it. We had extra work for the elecrician and the plumber was clear about how much he did for him and then us. Couldn't have been fairer and we are just waiting for a quote for changing to a sealed system, fitting a water softner, replacing our bathroom suite etc.

Of course language is a bit of a problem, he's from Newcastle ! [:)][:)]

Of course they get tea, coffee, cake, biscuits - I know when I'm well off !

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

the assistant came to the pile of boxes - went about 8 down took out the fittings I needed and then sealed up the box and put it back in the pile !!!

[/quote]

I've been the mug who bought that box sooooo many times![:'(]

Now I either won't even touch ones that appear to have been opened, or I open them myself, pour it all over the floor and count the bits [;-)]

As for plumber prices (F.I.L. was one) I had to get a boiler replaced (UK) and while I was on the phone getting a price from one 'artisan' and he told me which make/model bolier he would supply, so I googled it while he was talking and the rest of the conversation went like this:

(btw, I can't remember the exact £ amounts)

Plumber:  "The xyz brand boiler will cost £700 + my labour of £300"

Me:   "Is that the same xyz boiler, part number xxxxx  I can see on the screen infront of me for £350?"

Plumber:  ".......Yes"

Me:  "Is it still £700 where you buy it?"

Plumber:  "Yes"

Me:  "Bye"

In the trade we often mark stuff up a bit, but that was ridiculous, especially when I knew what was involved and what the prices were. Basically he was too busy to bother.

The frustrating thing was that my corgi registered father-in-law had selfishly popped his cloggs a few months earlier.[;-)]

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The cost for labour ....is £500 per day ...materials were on top of that ......to change the boiler put in two rew rads  and some new pipe work  total  quoted was  £2700 . Two  days  estimated work. .this must be because Bracknell is so close to London .....glad to say this Dorset area has not got such labour charges ......yet !

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