LindaH Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Can anyone give me a rough idea what the going rates are for artisans ? Say bricklayers, carpenters and the like . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Not enough information there. Will it be working for someone, or self employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeb Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 If you have work to be done, most artisans charge by the job. Reading on this site, many base their quotes on around 30 euros an hour (expensive, but in France nearly half of this has to be paid out in cotisations - health and pension charges) plus TVA and materials. Just remember to try to get two or three devis (estimates) in anda) if you sign a devis, it's a legal contract,b) add start and finish dates to the devis, c) don't pay more than 30% up front and pay the rest in stage payments, keeping a decent percentage back for when the jobs finished and you're satisfied with the work.If you are thinking about registering to work as an artisan, see above regarding the cotisations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindaH Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 Sorry, should have been more specific [+o(]My husband is registered and wants to know what to expect to pay say a carpenter or a brickie etc when he needs them on a project.Also have a mate who is a carpenter and he wanted to know rates he should charge.Thanks[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeb Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 We sometimes subcontract work to other registered artisans when we need to speed things up - normally around 200+ euros day. Your carpenter friend should know roughly how much to charge as this is covered in detail on the stage (course). Our accountant provided a list of charges for certain works (France is very regimented!), and this list is available in some books. Good luck. Pricing up jobs and getting it right is an art! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrym Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 You need to be aware of what the hourly rate includes - sometimes (a higher rate) can end up being cheaper because they include all the equipment, other artisans add on equipment 'hire', but saying all that I would expect 30-35 euros a hour about right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heath Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 [quote user="LindaH"]Sorry, should have been more specific [+o(]My husband is registered and wants to know what to expect to pay say a carpenter or a brickie etc when he needs them on a project.Also have a mate who is a carpenter and he wanted to know rates he should charge.Thanks[:)][/quote]So how does he provide an estimate to the customer if he doesn't know what he's going to have to pay subbies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindaH Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 [quote user="Heath"]So how does he provide an estimate to the customer if he doesn't know what he's going to have to pay subbies?[/quote]He has only just registered and having worked as a builder for over 20 years in the UK he is well used to estimating works thank you[:D]I was just querying what rates of pay were like compared to the UK.Thank you to those who have replied with helpful info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 He may be use to estimating the time for doing jobs. What he won't be used to is how much he needs to charge to get a living wage in France. Remember those cotisations. They don't take into account having no income or anything 'silly' like that. When the URSSAF etc want paying they want paying immediately. And woe betide you if you make a profit, you get hammered the following year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeb Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 If he's registered in France and has done the course (which is obligatory) he'll know all this, and how to cost up (hourly rates, materials, TVA, cotisations etc) as it's covered, repeated several times, and this is what everyone who is there talks about in tea breaks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindaH Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 [quote user="zeb"]If he's registered in France and has done the course (which is obligatory) he'll know all this, and how to cost up (hourly rates, materials, TVA, cotisations etc) as it's covered, repeated several times, and this is what everyone who is there talks about in tea breaks![/quote]OK I think people think I am trying to hide something here! I was just after some information from people who either worked in the building trade or for people who did, that was all [8-)]Yes, he is registered (I have already said he was), yes he's done the course ( he had to, as you say it's obligatory) and yes people may have talked in your coffee breaks, but that's all well and fine if your french is very good - his isn't! And all but 2 people were french. Yes, he's got the book of rates, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is what is charged or asked for by a subbie.There are going rates in the UK, but a variety of prices are charged. I thought this forum was to help people, not make them feel stupid, obviously I was wrong and I shall not bother posting again.As I said before, thank you to those who replied helpfully[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeb Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Apologies Linda, I'll try to be more helpful with this post.....You can work on cotisations of around 4000 in the first year plus decinal which could be up to 3000 a year (the 10 year guarantee), but then it's adjusted according to your tax bill (good reason to get a good accountant). If your husband has only just registered, he should get a cotisation bills soon from AVA, URSFF etc. Opt to pay by prelevement monthly (for us, it's a bit like having a big mortgage again). Also, there is no incentive to try to earn big bucks in the first years (or ever?) as you are penalised later with higher charges.Your subby will have the same charges (but maybe not the insurance decinal) so doesn't come cheap.I posted earlier what we have to pay the guys who work with us occasionally.Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 When we have needed to use outside artsians we ask for a devis from them first as obviously we have to pay them 19,6% TVA ontheir invoices, whereas quite often it works out better to get the other artisan to quote direct to the client and charge them 5,5%. and we have done this many times. You don't actually use sub-contractors here casually as you do in the UK because everyone is either a registered artisan or an employee with a fixed contract to an employer. An artisan should be charging a Minimum of 30€/hour depending on the skill involved to cover his basic costs and living, anyone charging less as an artisan cannot be properly registered or he is working for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetley Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Can I just add too, that it seems to me,a misconception that artisans are expensive in France...my hubby was a brickie back in UK and just over 2 years ago was charging £150 a day. Two years later and this will have increased. Also, plumbers, electricians etc, he knew were on at least that. I honestly do not think that 200 euros a day is expensive, when you consider that the euro becomes your 'pound'. Living expenses are about the same, when you look at it like that. Not sure if I have written that clearly?Linda, don't take the comments to heart, it is mind boggling when you are first starting out, it is a huge learning curve.....my husband is just in his second year since registering, and we still find some things confusing. If you are registered and insured, you cannot afford to charge any less than 200 euros a day. And once you are registered, unfortunately you will have to pay your cotisations, work or no work. As said before, artisans who charge less are no way registered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Don't give up on the Forum. It is very useful but you do have to be a little thick-skinned to allow for the fact that some people lack tact, whilst some use the anonymity to be downright rude. And there are those of course who have nothing better to do and love to hi-jack posts just so that they can say something "clever". Oooh, I am so impressed when someone points out that I have misspelt something.So just pick out the useful bits, ignore any parts that aren't helpful and pity the sad ones who can't find a life elsewhere.And remember to contribute with your own suggestions when some other soul is in need of help. Sounds as though you are just the sort of people whose input would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heath Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Linda, I also offer my apologies if my post above appeared antagonistic. I worked in the building trade here in France for many years and can only say that it takes years of experience to estimate for work on French property, especially renovation work. I found it very frustrating when the recent influx of British artisan turns up with virtually zero cotisations to pay in the first year, thinks he knows it all because he's worked in the UK for a few years and then thinks that finding out what the going rate for subbies is going to solve all his problems. It is much more important to find out how much a tradesman can do in a day and this only comes with experience (in France).Most trades will want about 250 euros a day but unless it's a new build they will probably only do about half what you would expect. Get them to give you a price for a job and make sure you make it clear that they clear up when they've finished (and check that done a decent job before you pay them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Speaking from my own experience in this area only, i.e I cannot assume that it applies all over France:I believe your husbands biggest problem will be finding subbies to work as & when, not their hourly rate.When in the UK I could find people to sub-contract to, it wasn't always easy and the hourly rate could vary significantly according to demand but they would usually work for an hourly rate, unless it was a specialist trade, supplying materials and having to warrant the work.Here the only artisans that I have ever found who would quote on an hourly rate are those working on the black, registered artisans will only (if you are very lucky!) submit a devis, and then often require 50% up front and keep you waiting upwards of a year.So for example if you have a job where your programme indicates that you will need a macon and a platrier during the next 2 months your worry will not be what hourly rate they will charge (because they will want to do it on a Devi, or Forfait for the noires, basis) but whether you will actually find someone.Most artisans I have spoken to talk about 30-35 euros per hour but always work to a devis, if you divide the charge by the hours worked even including travelling time and the site visit and preparing the devi you will usually come up with a rate far far higher than the "notional" hourly rate they talk about.For me, quoting your title "going rates for artisans" are just notional, something they discuss with their accountant once a year.I wish you luck and hope that you in time find a team of preffered subbies but around here there are just not enough people willing to take the risk of setting up self employed, even the black workers are busy for 6-12 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastet Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 We were warned against doing this on the stage. If you need other trades on a project get them to deal direct with the client. If you take responsibility for finding other tradesmen & start fulfilling the role of project manager/ maitre d'ouvre (spelling?) then you become responsible for their work. Your insurance typically doesn't cover you for this, so you become personally liable for any defects discovered later. Depending on the scale of possible problems you could end up in a world of trouble!I stick to my own trade & only recommend local artisans whom I've worked with and so personally know the quality of their work. Even then it's only passing on a phone number to the client to take from there. Local rate seems to be €35 an hour, but as others have said it's only a figure used for building up a quote & the time taken to complete the work can be something else ;-)good luck with your endeavours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 God I so hate this doom and gloom stuff and the ripping apart of self employment here, not to mention the obvious bitterness of those who couldn't make it, add to that the protagonists and the moaners and groaners about the charges and then there are those who work so hard and make so little and sound so bitter about life, and and and! I think someone also posted a while back about a large percentage of prospective self employed folk on a metiers course who were thinking of going back to UK after having heard a few days of fonctionnaires deliverering their horror stories on their self important stage, if they're that disillusioned after five minutes here they really should be booking a ferry back soonest.Boy, it's a wonder many of you bother to get out of bed! [:D] (Is that an appropriate grin?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Not everyone has your disposition Chris, it must sometimes look like a mountain to climb esp when you throw in variable language skills....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Agreed RH. If you're standing at the bottom of the mountain looking up at it you know there are going to be problems along the way that will have to be overcome, focussing on getting to the top is much more useful than moaning about your legs hurting halfway up. This isn't meant as a dig at anyone, more of a 'C'mon you can do it' type message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindaH Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share Posted April 5, 2007 Well I am still following the replies, so thanks to those who have helped.You have given me a rough idea of rates which is helpful.Linda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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