Poolguy Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 The Weatherhas started to turn and so minds may begin to turn to opening up the Pool for theSeason. Here are a fewideas that may be of interest to those who are unsure about what to do with theirpool, whether you have uncovered a green monster or its just cloudy and muckydelinquent. There are 5things you’ll need to look through to get the pool back into pristine condition. There is firstly, getting the much out – use a net to get most of big leaves and debris out, even if you can’t see the bottom its better than trying to vac it as it will just clog the system. Remember that vacs are really only meant to pick up dirt. So go round with a net and get as much as you can out, only after that yshould you employ the trusty vac.Water balance- start with total alkalinity, you’ll need 80 or more PPM, if its low then add Bi carb soda (for example a 10x 5 pool with a starting TA of 20 will need about 15 kg of Bi carb to get it up to 80ppm). Then go to pH, for if you have adjusted the TA then you pH will be skyrocketing. Using pH minus bring it down again to 7.2. Check the cyanuruc acid level, that should be no more than 50ppm, if you have more then you’ll need to add fresh water to dilute the concentration till it is with levels. Then you’ll need to Choc the pool for the first time, I recommend that you use Eau de Javel for this treatment (sodium hypochloride), its concentrated chlorine in liquid form and it will disperse quickly without altering the other balance. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE ANTIALGAE unless it is a biological antialgae, as the former are poisons which are copper based and very hard to get rid of. Then Filter for 2-3 days constantly, backwashing every day.Circulation – look at your filter and pump and calculate if you have enough. Think about the struggle you may have had last year and see if it is worth upgrading them. Find out the capacity of your pump and filter and divide it into the volume of the pool and the answer should be somewhere around 3 hours to circulate the whole pool. Typically in France, installers would use 5-6 hours or on rare occasions I have seen 4 hours and even 8 hours. If you want clean water then you will need 3 hours.Filtration – it might be time to change the sand in your filter. If it’s been there for 3 years or more then its over due for a change. I recommend that you replace it with zeolite, which gives you 40 times better filtration (40 micron versus 1 micron). It’s not expensive and will make a huge difference to the operation of your pool and the health of your family. It last for 5 years or more and you only back wash every 2 weeks instead of every week.Clean the waterline, margells and terrace – again avoid any products containing peroxide or ammonia, use a biological cleaning agent as it is sure that what ever you will use will end up in the pool. For the margells and terrace, I use the CHOCed pool water (10ppm) and a scrubbing brush, it works well. Algea, lichens and fungus have their own product combatants, but make sure to use them sparingly and not into the pool water. Hence ifthere are any questions about any of these ideas then by all means send me an emailor PM and I’ll do my best to respond. However the season is beginning and henceI am not often in the office so please be patient and I will get to everyone eventually. Many thanksto all for the patronage last season and I look forward to a busy 2007 season. BonNagè Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Thank you Andrew, that is very welcome advice.....................[B][B] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkham Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Good gracious, I've been getting it wrong all these years. All I do is take off the cover (used to be a heavyweight winter cover, now I've got a bar reinforced one to meet the legal regs), remove the anti frost floats ( weighted plastic bottles held in place on lengths of cord) and net out the few leaves that have found their way in - if the cover fits, why should there be many? Then I put the drain plugs back in the pump and filter and get the circulation going. Normally the pool will be clean after one pass with the vacuum, sometimes I might have to do it a second time. I check the salt concentration level, which may need some added, though it generally doesn't, check the pH and adjust if necessary. After that I enjoy swimming as soon as it's warm enough.I'd never realised I needed all these intensive, and doubtless expensive, checks. But then, I've never lowered the pool level in the winter or added any of the expensive winterisation chemicals. As I've only had the pool for thirteen years, perhaps something nasty is waiting for me. It used to be more difficult before I changed to salt electrolysis in 2000, but since then, child's play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Well, bully for you then........................................................[:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poolguy Posted February 18, 2007 Author Share Posted February 18, 2007 My comments in this thread are directed mainly to thosepeople who are interested in exemplary water quality in their pool. To achievethat it is necessary to verify and control the dimensions of the waterchemistry. There are of course other methods of managing a pooland if they suit the owner and users then by all means continue.However, I would say that these ideas apply equally to pools with almost anysanitization system: As you all know I favour Liquid Chlorine Direct as themost advanced method of sterilizing the water, but there is also Solid chlortabs, salt/chlor electrolysis, ozonators, UV treatment, peroxide, bromine/chlorand a host of others on the market today. (Only the first two meet withDepartment of Health (DDASS) approval specifically with respect to 'publicpools'). Moreover, these have little to do with filtration, circulation andvacuum cleaning which was the main thrust of my comments earlier.I am offering these ideas not to discredit pool owners who are happy with theirpool management regime but to help new owners, prospective owners or those whoare searching to improve their water quality to exemplary standard. Thisstandard is impossible to determine by a visual check, and must be analysed withthe relevant testers, which I list below. Free Chlorine/pH test kit - Local Brico about 5 euro, Iprefer the better ones which are about 9 euro (must be DPD1 & phenol redtabs in a blister pack- avoid the liquid reagents)Cyanuric acid - about 20 euro Total alkalinity - about 20 euroEau de Javel - about 25 euro for 20 litres @ 9.6% concentration - Brico's et albi carb soda - about 30 euro for 20 kgsThere are more sophisticated testers called photometers which will make these testseasier but they are a bit dearer.In all, using base chemicals you should be able to run your pool for a yearwith all the testers and raw chemicals for between 100-200 euro, If you arespending more than that you should have a look at why because I do not thinkthat it need be so.I do not advocate using any Flocculants (they’re plastic and a waste of money),antialgea (I already mentioned why), Winterising solution (benzilammoniate- younever want that sort of stuff in your water). You should even check thecontents of the tabs (gallettes) you buy form your brico or marche asthey are not always the same.The overriding thought here is that each owner must find what is right for themand keep with it if it works. I have had many conversations with people who areinterested in exemplary water quality and when they visit this subjectthey usuallyfind it easy to understand and adopt - because it is easy. But each pool ownerneeds to understand a little of water chemistry, and what follows what and whatreacts with what. It may seem a lot at first but with practical trial and erroron your pool it will come and the rewards are fine indeed.Good luck to all Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verviale Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Andrew you really are the Pool Doctor, your contribution to this section of the forum is priceless,I am very suprised Living France have not pounced on you to contribute in the magazine as there are so many pool owners in France now,I would always come to you before anyone,thankyou for your excellent posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northender Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Hi Poolguy Thanks for your informed comments , I find them very interesting.We had a pool installed 3 years ago at our holiday home and because I can only get there late June/early July the water in the pool is usually very green and takes about a week before the quality is anything like.I waste about a third of the water after cleaning the sides and then top up with clean water before applying the choc treatment.I have used antialgae previously but will try Javel , how much should I use for 75 cubic metres?The filter is diamantes and I only add the slurry after the water is reletively clean.I don't add anything to the water when I winterise the pool , usually mid September ( a little early I know ) but again because of commitments back in the UK.I will be there at Easter for 2 weeks . Is there anything that I could be doing then that may help the situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poolguy Posted February 18, 2007 Author Share Posted February 18, 2007 [quote user="verviale"]Andrew you really are the Pool Doctor, yourcontribution to this section of the forum is priceless,I am verysuprised Living France have not pounced on you to contribute in themagazine as there are so many pool owners in France now,I would alwayscome to you before anyone,thankyou for your excellent posts.[/quote]Thanks for that VervialeI gladdened that my contribution is appreciated.I have been talking to the Magazine Editor about some editorial.Because I want to talk as well to those Brits in France who do not usethe net or Forums but also have pools. I hope that they give the ideaas much support as they have indicated.There are some specific topics which need to be aired in larger prose and pics which would suite the magazine rather than here.I will also be launching in a months time "Poolguy's Pure Water Mark"for Gites owners. Its sort an assurance to the Gite buying public thatthe pool they will swim in is the best it can be. I hope that its ahelp to those people who have invested in clean water and improvementsto the pool when they are making a business out of it. I have spoken toa lot of the Gite staying public and they all seem to respondpositively to the idea.But I am still in the process of writing it.So, I'll help anyone with questions so long as I have the time to do so.Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verviale Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 I have bought the magazine every month for the last fifteen years and the coverage on swimming pools is poor, suprising with all the new regs of late, I only recall a couple of articles on poolbuild and managment in those years, so yes it would be great to see some coverage on this subject, there are always new products and new ways of doing things, heavens, things have really moved on since I had my first pool many years ago,so lets hope they use your expertise.Sometimes I really get confused with all the different products on offer and I am sure lots of us have made big mistakes one way and another, it is so easy and expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkham Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Well, Poolguy may sneer at those of us who don't want to live in a chemical laboratory, but there are many pools worldwide that use salt water electrolysis and they can't all be wrong. I used to go through all the pain of throwing money, sorry, chlorine products, into my pool and having it turn green if I turned my back for a couple of days. Since changing to salt I have had a pool with sparkling water that Poolguy would undoubtedly say is heaving with germs, but it's a risk I'm willing to take, and I wouldn't be letting my grandchildren swim in it if I wasn't confident of it's healthy state. To my mind the fact that, when I take off the winter cover, the water is clean, not green, speaks volumes. Incidentally, how many new municipal pools use chlorine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 [quote user="Tylden"]Well, Poolguy may sneer at those of us who don't want to live in a chemical laboratory, [/quote]Sorry, but where is Andrew 'sneering' ? I think he was remarkably restrained in his response to your guilded attempt at sarcasm. Unless you are in some way involved in saltwater pools of course.[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chezstevens Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 [quote user="Tylden"]Well, Poolguy may sneer at those of us who don't want to live in a chemical laboratory, but there are many pools worldwide that use salt water electrolysis and they can't all be wrong. I used to go through all the pain of throwing money, sorry, chlorine products, into my pool and having it turn green if I turned my back for a couple of days. Since changing to salt I have had a pool with sparkling water that Poolguy would undoubtedly say is heaving with germs, but it's a risk I'm willing to take, and I wouldn't be letting my grandchildren swim in it if I wasn't confident of it's healthy state. To my mind the fact that, when I take off the winter cover, the water is clean, not green, speaks volumes. Incidentally, how many new municipal pools use chlorine?[/quote]Mmmm ...... sad you don't actually read Poolguy's advice. He is there to help the novice with the basics and the amateur with any probs they may have. Give the guy a break - Yes he has a business but that does not distract from the sound advice. A friend of mine has recently binned salt for chlorine because he wasn't happy with the results - not because he wanted to have a snipe at salt systems.lighten up or you may negate the effects of a glass or 2 of the vino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apero Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I agree with those who post in 'Poolguy's' favour, . One question- Quantities per 1000ltr would help. Water balance- start with you pH will be skyrocketing. Using pH minus bring it down again to 7.2. Check the cyanuruc acid level, that should be no more than 50ppm, if you have more then you’ll need to add fresh water to dilute the concentration till it is with levels. Then you’ll need to Choc the pool for the first time, I recommend that you use "Eau de Javel" for this treatment (sodium hypochloride), its concentrated chlorine in liquid form and it will disperse quickly without altering the other balance. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE ANTIALGAE unless it is a biological antialgae, as the former are poisons which are copper based and very hard to get rid of. Then Filter for 2-3 days constantly, backwashing every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkham Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Oh well, I'll shut up. I know that I have a clean pool with very little effort and that suits me.And by the way, no, I don't have any commercial interest in anything, only saving myself effort and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 [quote user="Barkham"]Well, Poolguy may sneer at those of us who don't want to live in a chemical laboratory, but there are many pools worldwide that use salt water electrolysis and they can't all be wrong. I used to go through all the pain of throwing money, sorry, chlorine products, into my pool and having it turn green if I turned my back for a couple of days. Since changing to salt I have had a pool with sparkling water that Poolguy would undoubtedly say is heaving with germs, but it's a risk I'm willing to take, and I wouldn't be letting my grandchildren swim in it if I wasn't confident of it's healthy state. To my mind the fact that, when I take off the winter cover, the water is clean, not green, speaks volumes. Incidentally, how many new municipal pools use chlorine?[/quote]"Chlorine may be generated on site, such as in saltwater pools. This type of system generates chlorine by electrolysis of dissolved salt (NaCl) using an electrical cell in the pool plumbing, instead of manually dosing the pool with chlorinating chemicals." (Wikipedia)So you don't swim in a chemical compound? I just swim in a pool that is governed by the automatic chlor/PH computer. It keeps the levels correct and safe and it checks them every 3 minutes! At the end of the season I had to make some adjustments to the water chemistry because the TA was too low, the cyanuric acid was too low and algea was forming because the chlor was dissapating too quickly when the pump stopped. Since then I have had to wind back the floating cover a couple of times to net out some leaves that had fallen in and blown in past the sides of the cover. But the chemistry has stayed steady and the water is crystal clear with no more green round the edges.A load of the credit goes to Poolguy. Good luck with your salt pool, but don't ever think that you are swimming without the aid of chlor!!!!!Bromine also uses chlor and the only system that is in common use that doesn't is UV light and that doesn't kill the algea in your pool, it only kills the algea in the water that passes through your filter. So it won't stop green on your pool surfaces, only the algea that is loose and floating in the water. We all know that the stuff on the walls is NOT floating, don't we?I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that all new public pools in France had to have and auto chlor/PH system. The same with the U.S. and Aus. I stand to be corrected if that is not the case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Barkham, you are a lucky guy, I have had a salt water system since 2004, and if I knew then what I know now I would not bother with salt at all. I have had lots of problems. When I can afford it, the I am going to get one of the direct injection chlorine systems.Also, I can only commend PoolGuy's input on this forum and advice he has given me, yes he is in business, but he does know what he is talking about, unlike a lot of us novice pool owners, who he is trying to help, although I know a lot more now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkham Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Yes, alright, I said I'd shut up - it's just that I wouldn't want to give the impression that I'm so stupid that I don't understand the chemistry of a salt water system.Now I really will shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suze01 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 I'll support Barkham here - I've had a salt pool for a few years now and it is superb. I have an abri and I can see that right now my water is crystal clear even though it has been closed since November. And, I fully understand the chemistry of the pool [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 And to think we still wonder how wars are started.......................................[:D][:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Yep!! Can't understand it myself [8-)][B] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poolguy Posted February 24, 2007 Author Share Posted February 24, 2007 My thanks to all those who contributed to the discussion.To set the records straight, 'Public swimming pools" (commercial) as wellas Municipal are controlled by the DDASS who oblige Pool managers to use eitherLiquid chlorine injection or solid chlor tabs provided that they are monitoredevery hour in the case of a heavy use facility such as a camping ground. The pHis controlled by the usual Sodium bisulphate (pH moins) or equally effective isHydrochloric acid, sulphuric acid (my preference) or carbon dioxide gas. Thereis no provision or norm what so ever for use of salt electrolysis in a commercialinstallation. Where such a system exists prior to control by the DDASS, I amaware of at least one case where a pragmatic approach was take and the Manageris permitted to continue. However, I am advise by Officers in SeveralDepartments that if that pool was in their jurisdiction the Pool manager wouldbe obliged to either change system immediately or close his pool for use by thepublic. This is the same state of affairs in Australia and the US.For the benefit of my detractors, I have stated here and on many occasionspreviously, that if you are happy with your pool management regime then staywith it.I try to employ the best available science to be helpful to those who aretrying to make informed choices. I try in all cases to make informed commentsfrom the best research available and a concomitance of the trends world wide,which in exemplar counties such as Australia are against practice of introducingsalt into the Potable water environment. This is not just a matter of personalpreference anymore as much of Australia faces catastrophic water shortages. Inthis light, it is incomprehensible to fathom the logic of turning 75,000 liters(or more) of potable water into saline, to support a more expensive technology,which has been superseded 15 years ago. To the contrary, the emergingtechnologies are trying to combine elements of such as UV or Ozone along withminimum chlorine injection, and in the other lane the total biological approachto maintain purer water.And again I can also reiterate that the purpose of this thread is a discussionfor all types of systems what are the issues and processes involved in openingyour pool – not just systems of disinfectant. So if you already know how to dothat then we can offer you nothing new on this occasion, then I hope that wecan be of some help at another time or on another subject. Once again my thanks to those who have posted questions. How mach Javel is enough to choc a pool? Well in a 10 x 5, Ihave been known to use a whole 20 litre drum (9.6%) as I wanted 10PPM to clean upa particularly nasty situation. If its not so bad, maybe half that. Good ideato dilute it 50: 50 before adding, and pour it in away from the liner to avoid repercussionson the liner. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apero Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 [quote user="Poolguy"]How mach Javel is enough to choc a pool? Well in a 10 x 5, I have been known to use a whole 20 litre drum (9.6%) as I wanted 10PPM to clean up a particularly nasty situation. If its not so bad, maybe half that. Good idea to dilute it 50: 50 before adding, and pour it in away from the liner to avoid repercussions on the liner.<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->Andrew[/quote]Thanks for the reply Andrew.[B] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayenne53 Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 [quote user="Poolguy"]How mach Javel is enough to choc a pool? Well in a 10 x 5, I have been known to use a whole 20 litre drum (9.6%) as I wanted 10PPM to clean up a particularly nasty situation. If its not so bad, maybe half that. Good idea to dilute it 50: 50 before adding, and pour it in away from the liner to avoid repercussions on the liner.[/quote]Hello AndrewI had a pool installed last summer, and the manufacturer states that to keep the warranty valid for the liner, I must use their chemicals - they are non-chlorine based (apparently), and my question is, does chlorine affect liners and if so, at what strength would the ppm have to be to do such damage (fading I guess?)?Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poolguy Posted April 1, 2007 Author Share Posted April 1, 2007 Incredible???????What sort of pool do you have? Can you post the relevant section.Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apero Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 [quote user="Poolguy"]Incredible???????[/quote]Exactly my thought; un-reputable installers will tell us amateurs this. Why? To there benefit, we buy their expensive products at an inflated rate as we are so (green) in the world of pool maintainence. Thanks to 'poolguy' we now know better.[B]Apero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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