Sue Buckle Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 We are trying to cost a renovation project. The house has solid walls and roof, and the current owners have insulated the roof, and then stopped. We would have to finish the internal attic space, and re-organise the downstairs space, moving a staircase, bathroom, adding velux windows, knocking some holes in thick walls, etc. We have been given a rough estimate of the work involved at €70,000. We have never attempted a restoration before, and are worried about the constant refrain of builders always charging more than their estimates. Someone else has quoted €1000-€1250 a square metre as a good rough guide of costs, but this seems very high for internal work, and would put the project out of our reach. Another person has said you have to add 40% on to the quote for materials, and half as much time again as you have been quoted. We have a lump sum and cannot exceed it. I'd love to hear from a few people about whether we really need to add 40-50% onto our budget.Thanks in advance.Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Reasons builders need to go above their original quote for work are, very often, entirely the result of the client changing their mind. You're talking about some major structural alterations involving, among other things, moving a bathroom, and presumably the building needs electrics and plumbing as part of the "internal works" you mention. There will almost always be unforseen expenses, especially when renovating an old building, and I sincerely doubt whether others' experiences will help you that much. Will you have an architect or a project manager? Can you decide at the outset exactly where you want all the plumbing and electrical sockets etc.? And can you guarantee that you won't change your mind about anything and that your builder won't come across any unexpected snags that aren't visible at the outset?There's always a ball-park figure that will give an idea of costs, but the rest requires a crystal ball, IMO. All the more so in the current climate when the prices of materials are likely to rise rather than fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 What would you do in your own country, get three or more quotes and then go see what their work is like. You should do exactly the same in the France. France is actually better in some ways in that having received your quote and if both parties agree you both sign it and it becomes a legally binding contract to both parties. That means the whatever the amount is on the bottom line of the quote that's what you pay, not a cent more or less. The other thing is 'extras' and this is where people get caught out. The quote I agreed to for work some time back had the following included (but in French), 'I will not pay for anything unless it is on a quote signed by both parties'. This means that you know what you are getting and the builder knows what what they need to do. If you want an extra done you get a quote and you both pay. This way you know exactly what it's costing you and the builder won't mind because he has signed bits of paper and knows you will have to pay. It protects both parties.I don't know if you are going to be tax resident in France or not but keep in mind that if you are then there are advantages for certain things i.e. you get some money back, wood burners for example and I believe there are loads of other things but they must be installed by a qualified person for you to be able to claim.Some other things you need to know. Always use a registered builder, you can check their siret number on the Internet. Make sure they have all their insurance documents. If they can't supply either of these things then don't use them. You should not under any circumstances employ anyone who does not meet the above. If you do they will be working on the black. Anything happens to them on site, they (the police etc) come after you. All their medical bills, social money paid to the family etc is all down to you to pay because you employed them knowing they were working illegally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Another thing that will affect sticking to the price stated is whether you will be there while the work is being done.If you aren't there 24/7 you can guarantee something will be done "wrong" and have to be re-done, which will cost extra.I've heard this story many times and usually it's not the fault of the builder etc. but leads to all sorts of disputes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 My advice to you would be to break the project into several sections for devi, eg 1 internal attic space, 2 downstairs space, moving a staircase, 3 bathroom, 4 velux windows, etc; Worth researching your area to get recommendations for suitable artisans and ensuring you have 2 or 3 devi's. Make an allowance for unforseen work and proceed section by section to stay within budget. I have had several renovations carried out in UK and one in France. France has been the most difficult to control (especially in my absence).I have never had a builder complete work to their quoted price, usually because of unforseen circumstances, and additional work has involved anything from 10 to 50%. Bonne chance[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Always get a finish date. Otherwise if they are disreputable it could go on for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote user="idun"]Always get a finish date. Otherwise if they are disreputable it could go on for years.[/quote]Absolutely and if it is a big project then get a penalty clause for overrun, so much per day to be knocked of the final bill. Also, while I think of it, get the 'stage payments' written in to the quote. Don't forget don't hand over the final payment until you have done the snag list and the snags have been fixed. Holding on to the money is like holding on to a guys testicles, his heart and mind are sure to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote user="Sue Buckle"]We have been given a rough estimate of the work involved at €70,000. [/quote]Best advice, which has been alluded to, is to employ an architect. He / she will probably cost you €5k-€10k, but it'll be money well spent.You then move away from "rough estimates" to a proper schedule of works against which a builder can give you a proper devis. Operating like that is as much in his interests as yours.Just make sure that you then take all the above advice, such as ensuring that everything is specified (electrics, insulation, etc, etc) and that both you and the builder sign up to a document.Its no different here in France to the UK ................ except if you're not on site. Then you may well have to pay the architect or someone else to project manage for you. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote user="Sue Buckle"]We have never attempted a restoration before, and are worried about the constant refrain of builders always charging more than their estimates. [/quote]Do you properly understand France's devis system?[quote user="Gardian"]Best advice, which has been alluded to, is to employ an architect. He / she will probably cost you €5k-€10k, but it'll be money well spent.[/quote]I agree - in principle - however, an architect (or project manager) can very easily be a waste of space and therefore a waste of money. We had a project manager and ended up managing the renovation ourselves. He was a complete chocolate teapot. If you do employ one, make sure the artisans bill you and you pay the artisans directly. Don't contract for the project manager to bill you and then pay the artisans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Given the sort of work you are describing that I would say that the 1000€ per m² is a good rough guide - it will of course depend on the level of finish you expect to achieve. If this is beyond budget, consider if the work can be done in stages and funded over time from earnings - which is what we have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 [quote user="Gardian"]You then move away from "rough estimates" to a proper schedule of works against which a builder can give you a proper devis. Operating like that is as much in his interests as yours.Just make sure that you then take all the above advice, such as ensuring that everything is specified (electrics, insulation, etc, etc) and that both you and the builder sign up to a document.Its no different here in France to the UK ................ except if you're not on site. Then you may well have to pay the architect or someone else to project manage for you. Best of luck. [/quote]Totally agree. Wishy washy requirements will get you a price but you may then find that you will be in the position of saying 'no we do not want that type we want this' to which you will get the reply 'that will be x amount extra'.A good schedule of works will take time to put together. An example of part of one:Existing Kitchen – Room No. G015: Unplug power supply and remove 455mm wide x 310mm deep x 290mm high Micro Unit and put to one side for re-use in the New Kitchen. Disconnect power supply and remove 500mm wide x 600mm deep x 1400mm high Electric Cooker Unit and put to one side for re-use in the New Kitchen. Carefully remove existing door and put to one side for re-use. Discard all door ironmongery Isolate services and carefully remove approx. 600mm wide x 600mm deep x 850mm high Dish Washer, and put to one side for re-use in the new Kitchen. Remove 1 No. towel dispensers and 1 No. soap dispenser and put aside for re-use in the New Kitchen. Remove all wall fitted fixtures / fittings and the like, and put to one side for possible reuse. Remove 3 No. approx. 1000 mm wide x 300mm deep x 600mm high wall storage units and cart away. Carefully remove approx. 1630mm long x 600mm deep work complete with base units and cart away. Carefully remove approx. 1180mm long x 600mm deep work complete with leg supports cart away. Isolate services and carefully remove approx. 600mm deep x 1020mm long x 900mm high existing single drainer sink unit, complete with fixtures, fittings and base unit cupboard and cart away. Isolate mechanical services and carefully remove existing WHB, complete with all fixtures and fittings and cart away. Remove existing vinyl flooring and vinyl skirting and cart away.and each line will be priced. This then enables you to make additions, deletions and changes, have them priced before the job starts.This could have been one line:strip out existing kitchen and the builder could decide that everything stripped out would not be reusedThe preamble also includes all sorts of instructions, for instance:DEFINITIONS. Demolish / Strip Out: Disconnect, dismantle as necessary and remove the stated element, work or component and all associated accessories, fastenings, supports, linings and bedding materials, bag and dispose of unwanted materials. It also includes removing associated pipe work, wiring, ductwork and other services and all temporary supports, props and the like to enable the works to be carried out. Cart Away: Remove from site and dispose of in an appropriate manner via “skip” or to other recognised and approved waste compound. Remove: Carefully disconnect, dismantle as necessary and remove the stated component and all associated accessories, fastenings and dispose of unwanted materials. Prevent damage to component and adjacent areas. Keep For Reuse: During removal prevent damage to the stated components or materials, and clean off bedding and jointing materials. Stack neatly, adequately protect and store until required by the Employer or for use in the Works as instructed. Replace: Remove the stated existing components, features and finishes; Provide and fit in lieu new components, features or finishes which, unless specified otherwise, must match those which have been removed; Make good as necessary. This forms just a small part of the building side of a £55k job for which there is similar for the mechanical and electrical elements. A part of the electrical side: 6.01 Existing Kitchen6.01.1 Disconnect and remove existing cooker, to be relocated into the new kitchen. 6.01.2 Replace existing luminaire with new, free issue twin fitting.6.01.3 Modify and extend existing small power installation to suit new room layout and retain fused connection unit to extract fan, which is to remain in place. Provide a 3m length of two compartment dado trunking along the external wall and provide 3no double socket outlets and 2no single gang back boxes for data/telecoms cabling (by others). Provide containment from the trunking back to high level in the corridor including a separate wire way for data/telecoms.6.01.4 Change heat detector to smoke (swap with detector in existing office). Best of luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It won't go over budget if you don' let it. You can't pay them money you don't have and decent builders know this. Mine on the whole was pretty good and when he did encounter unforeseen problems we discussed them and often he was able to shave off bits and pieces from other parts of the works which we could do without, to finance the important stuff. A couple of stupid things (for instance, we had three chiens assis installed and I forgot they'd actually need windows in them. Doh!) were entirely my fault but nobody starts major works without a decent contingency, do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We were in the renovation business here for many years and quite often there would be unforseen problems that arose that could never have been priced for on the devis, usually this was in roofing work where you would find that the frame or volige was completely rotten and that it could only come to light whenthe roof was stripped. The official way to continue with unforseen problems is to give a new devis for that particular work and its upto the client then whether to accept or not, you MUST NEVER do extra works without it being signed for because in a court tribunal it would not be accepted by the judge as legitimate.Building projects do sometimes tend to run over the devis,but if the builder is good and competent, he will have made provisions in the devis by inserting a clause stating there could be extra costs for unforseen problems. End of the day, a renovation work usually consists of work that you will never ever see but is crucial for the wellbeing of the property and future work,such as damp proofing,insulating,laying a proper insulated floor and screeding,replacing plumbing and electrical and hidden carpentry such as roofs and the builder should not have to lose out by financing the client himself.Extra devis and signature every single time is the only way to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I see the OP hasn't been back here.Do you think you have all put her off renovating completely?[:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Buckle Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ha ha! Yes, a little put off, but not totally discouraged! I quite understand that things change during a restoration, and that obviously has to be paid for. We are obtaining 2 reasonably detailed quotes, and will take it from there.Thank you so much for all your comments. Really useful, and will help us decide if we are up for it. At the moment we are both resident in the UK, and would have to find a project manager, as co-ordinating from here would be really difficult. So if anyone knows a good PM in the Lot, let me know!Thanks again,Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Buckle Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 What is a chien assis? Apart from a seated dog? It sounds like a phrase I should know! Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 A dormer window. Or in our case, a dormer without the window (nearly.) [:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Buckle Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Okay, I now know that a chien assis is a dormer window! Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Buckle Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Oops, we crossed over. Thanks for the explanation. You must have laughed when you realised what you had left out!Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 [quote user="Sue Buckle"]. You must have laughed when you realised what you had left out!Sue[/quote]For the few minutes until we saw the cost....I think that's one of the major problems for amateurs like us (my o/h and me, I mean) - yes the estimate can be very detailed but have you forgotten anything really obvious? It didn't occur to stupid old us that when we asked to have three dormers put in, that that would not include the windows and the glass even though, clearly, they were not actually on the devis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Buckle Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yes, I would have thought that a dormer included absolutely everything. That reminds me of the time we purchased an IKEA bed, and the woman at the till asked if we needed 'sommier'. I thought she meant a mattress topper, so said no. When we put the bed together and the mattress fell through onto the floor, I realised that she had meant the supporting struts. Felt very foolish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallyC Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hi,We decided to employ a project manager (he is an architect) mainly because we envisaged there would be lots of problems with progression of works if we didn't.We live in the UK and knew we wouldn't be able to visit all the time. We already had devis from various artisans for masonry, plumbing, electrics, carpentry before we appointed the architect. With the exception of one of the artisans, we went with the ones we had the original devis from. Using the architect has turned out to be the best decision we could have made. There are all sorts of things that you don't realise need to be done to achieve the result you envisage and the architect knows about all this and can guide you, hence you go into the actual work with a fairly accurate idea of the costs involved. The architect handles all the contracts with the artisans and time manages the work very tightly. We are about half way through the contracted works now and things seem to be well on schedule. We have a detailed gant chart (which all the artisans have to sign prior to work starting to agree they will attend at those times) and we get weekly reports from the weekly site meetings, plus photos from the architect.Our original devis changed an awful lot between the initial ones commissioned by us and the ones now contracted for. Of course, the cost has changed (upwards of course) but I can imagine if we had tried to do it without the architect, we would have kept falling across unforeseen major issues with huge expense. The architect also exercised his creative views (at our invitation) and has greatly improved and enhanced the property as a result of this. We definitely get a thrill of excitement whenever we see photos or even better, get to visit.Yes, the architect does cost money but if you can't be there yourself and more to the point, don't know EXACTLY what you want to do and how it needs to be achieved, and want to avoid going nuts, I would suggest getting one.Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Buckle Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Thank you, Sally. I appreciate this, as we would be in exactly the same situation. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 [quote user="cooperlola"] [quote user="Sue Buckle"]. You must have laughed when you realised what you had left out!Sue[/quote]For the few minutes until we saw the cost....I think that's one of the major problems for amateurs like us (my o/h and me, I mean) - yes the estimate can be very detailed but have you forgotten anything really obvious? It didn't occur to stupid old us that when we asked to have three dormers put in, that that would not include the windows and the glass even though, clearly, they were not actually on the devis.[/quote]I see hundreds of houses in France with dormers without windows, so you can't be alone in making that mistake [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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