f1steveuk Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 I know this s a long time after the law came in, but it puzzles me, especially as not even my marie knows the answers.I am about to change my alarm, after my was taken (!!!). The new one is up to the standard, and has the certificates.Ours is a private house, in the middle of no where. We don't rent out, and rarely have guests. We're also not there (work) for longish periods.Now, there is a fence, between the house and the pool, but ultimately if the alarm is set off, and we're working, no one is going to hear the alarm. The fence is part of the garden fencing, and to fence the pool to "standard" would costs as much as the house did.My questions are, as I have met the criteria (the alarm), do I need the fence, (I know it's belt and braces, but it is a garden fence). IF, and it's a very big if, considering our location, someone got to the pool while we are working/away, they would be trespassing, and if they got into the pool, it's doubtful anyone could hear the alarm anyway.I want to remove the fence, but it's not critical!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 [quote user="f1steveuk"]My questions are, as I have met the criteria (the alarm), do I need the fence ?I want to remove the fence, but it's not critical!![/quote]Just a thought but friends of ours have a holiday home abutting the Golfe de Morbihan. When they bought the house the pool was already in place with no security at all so, to comply with the law, they fitted a locked heavyweight cover, which is unrolled daily when the pool is in use. The pool is in front of the house, there is neither fence nor alarm and you can see the pool from the gulf road, along which the world and his wife and the gendarmes pass almost daily.Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 Exactly my point, if you read the law, as written you need EITHER a fence, an alarm OR a cover, none of whichare relly any good if I am not there!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 [quote user="f1steveuk"]... OR a cover, none of whichare relly any good if I am not there!![/quote]Well as the law was introduced to stop children from drowning in an unattended pool I would have thought a heavy locked cover would have stopped a child from doing exactly that. They could climb a fence or ignore an alarm but, even if you were not there, they would be hard pushed to take a locked cover off.Edit : What really gets me is all the houses, with swimming pools, I see for sale on 'maison à vendre' on M6 which have no fence, no alarm and defintely no lockable cover evident. In fact I cannot remember seeing even one private property for sale that had any security protection for the pool.Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 I understand what you're saying, it's just missing my point, and the questions I asked. Yes, a heavy cover would do it, if it were possible, whicjh it isn't.The questions I asked were is it either, or, and can I lose the fence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Question: How many on here have had a spot inspection of their pool to ascertain whether or not it meets the security/safety requirements?I suggest that the only possible time that the arrangements will ever be examined is after someone has drowned in it.Would you be happy to argue that the carpy alarm that was installed absolves you of any responsibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twizzle Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 [quote user="f1steveuk"] The fence is part of the garden fencing, and to fence the pool to "standard" would costs as much as the house did.[/quote]A little exaggeration there OP. Rough estimate would be €40 per meter + gate. Going by worldofpools.comI do know what your saying though. Our neighbour has no fence alarm or cover for his pool just shrugs when mentioned. All off my immigrant friends/neighbours who have pools comply with their rules.Honestly to answer your Q's No you are not complying with an alarm and not being there, but you know that. Regarding them being charged with trespassing possibly Yes if they lived if they died NO. You would be €40,000 poorer. Would I take a similar risk No. We have a glass fence and gate but if my budget was stretched, I would opt for the one in the link I provided.Edit - In the 14 yrs we have had our pool not once have we had a visit re compliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 You see, there are the grey areas. If I went shopping for the morning, and someone wondereed in and fell in, I, nor none of my neighbours would hear the alarm, let alone respond. But I have met the criteria. The fact I may go on holiday, or go away to work is, ultimately no different. No one can stay in their house 24/7, just in case, just because they have a pool. I know of French families who work in Paris, and have homes near us with pools, and each has attempted to meet the criteria. One has a cover, one has a fence, one has just an alarm, and another an alarm and fence. The Marie told them, they have met the criteria. It boils down to what you can do, and what is sensible, because ultimately the only 100% cast iron way to prevent accidents would be to employ a 24/7, 52 weeks of the year pool guard, and sit him in a deckchair just watching.Trust me, I understand why the law exists, and I applaud it, it's just, like a lot of laws (breathalysers etc) half arsed, and full of grey areas, until, as has been pointed out, it does go wrong, then I know the French would make the law apply to the situation.The law does say "Either", "or", and obviously all would be better, but we can only read the law as written.I was told there is a codicile to the law regarding age. It is unlikely a five year old would wonder on to my property alone, so should someone "help themselves" and it goes wrong, it is assumed (by the French, not me), that they were old enough to know what they were doing and therefore understood the risks. I have yet to see this in print mind you!As for trusting a "crappy" alarm. That is what the law is suggesting, that we trust an alarm, or a cover, or a fence. The alarm I have is above the required standard, and far from crappy, and I get the feeling if you had all three, it still wouldn't be enough, none of the methods is infallable to someone determined to get in, like house alarms, but you have to look at the age group the methods are aimed at, which I would venture would be 12/13 and below.No, I am not happy about leaving the pool and worry endlessly when we aren't at home, either just going shopping for the morning, or having to be away working, and if I could have all three prevention methods, I would, but sometimes it simply isn't possible, for many reasons and you can only do as much as you can, and as I say, by the way the law is written, and has been passed, I am covered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twizzle Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I hear you loud and clear f1steveuk and do agree to an extent,I do know that if you have a complying cover or fence & gate securing your pool, your deemed no fault if a 5 yr old gets in your pool and dies. Though I can't remember the exact time but you must respond to a pool alarm going off before a certain time elapses. I did say our French neighbours don't comply with their pools but they don't seem to bother and just shrug. Don't think there are any grey areas, you must have one of the 3 complying methods to stop a 5 yr old or under to gain access to your pool. We have grand children 1,3,4,5,6 what they do is eye opening when told to wait for a minute before we go into the pool. 3yr old will push a patio chair up to the gate and try and open it. GrrrrDid you check out the link I gave you for a fence, not too bad I thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 As many will know, this is not the 1st time that this subject has been agonised over on here.This was a piece of legislation (annectodedly) rushed in by a Minister who sadly lost a related youngster.Of course the rules are open to question as to whether anybody would take any notice of an alarm or whether a child might climb over a fence, etc, etc.What it's about is yes, taking some sensible safety precautions for a wandering child from 'outside', but crucially reminding everybody that young children need to be watched all the time in the vicinity of water.Not sure, but I wouldn't mind betting that most of the tragedies have been 'within the residents at the house' rather than a little one fetching up at a neighbour's place.This wasn't particularly good Law and it cost most of us a packet, but if it raised everybody's awareness and saved more than a few lives, then it was worthwhile. You just comply, talk to your immediate neighbours (if they have youngsters) and make sure that you keep your own safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindal1000 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 We investigated all options when we installed our pool. The pool is close to the house and in easy view of the road. Fences are only relevant if they conform to the strict standards. It has to be close the pool, above a certain height and have a gate which must be kept securely closed.We have no fences.We use a standard alarm in the summer and a heavy duty winter cover when the pool is closed down. If we were out no one would hear if the alarm went off but we conform to the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I am surprised that Linda is the only one to mention fences really? It is the fact that if the fence and gate does not meet the NF standard then it does NOT count as a deterrent. The info below is from http://www.mip-swimming-pools-france.com/Law-in-France.htmlFencing must comply to NF P90-306.It must be a minimum of 1 metre in height.The lock must be childproof and have a 2 action movement.There must be no ledges or footholds for a child to climb up.A building wall may be considered suitable as part of the fencing - e.g. side of barn. Fencing should be positioned a minimum of 1 metre from the pool edge - no maximum is indicated, however the law states that the fencing must be around the pool area.Fencing around the whole premises is not acceptable. If you wish to fence close to a perimeter fence, there must be an arc of 1.2m before contact with the perimeter fence i.e. to prevent someone clambering onto perimeter fencing and over pool fencing. POOL ALARMSSwimming pool alarms must comply to NF P90-307. These are often the cheapest option - but are only as effective as your response time. Which raises the question - If you are not present and a neighbours child falls in, who will respond, bearing in mind that you have the ultimate responsibility as pool owner. Pool alarms will detect when someone or something has fallen into, or entered a specific area of the pool. The alarm often has to be turned off for swimming - which necessitates someone remembering to put it back/turn it on once swimming is finished. Pool alarms only detect when someone has fallen in, they do not prevent someone falling in.SAFETY COVERSSafety covers must comply to NF P90-308. Safety covers cover the whole pool or the pool and pool edge. They must be strong enough to take the weight of an adult. Safety covers will state they are reinforced for safety purposes, some can be used as heat retention and for overwintering.Separate summer and overwintering covers are NOT the same thing and have already been the cause of a fatality in France. Covers only provide security if the state the conform to the AFNOR standards and hence, the swimming pool law in France. Separate Summer and winter covers are entirely different, summer covers provide heat retention, winter covers prevent overwinter debris and provide protection to the pool, not to people.Safety covers are applied with manual roller or by automation, often increasing costs.As a matter of interest, I have been told, by an expat pool pro, that an alarm is one of the best ways of witnessing a drowning. The response time for an alarm is 3 minutes if I remember correctly? How that is possible if you are not there is anyone's guess? We have a floating security cover and to open it I have to get my battery drill and the drive shaft and use that to wind it back. It take a couple of minutes, including going into my workshop for the drill. A fer years back we have friends visiting. They have a big labrador, Fred, and he was wandering around the garden and took a short cut across the cover. He got slightly wet feet and that is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 And yet the artificial lake I built 500 meters from the swimming pool which is larger, deeper, full of murky water, trailing weeds and other plants, has no steps and slippery sloping sides needs none of this pish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 That's cause if anybody fall in there you won't be able to see them and the fish will not need feed for a while [Www][Www]Same logic with the rivers, canals and other lakes init.. Mind you, when you get the lakes around here they are either patrolled or have signs telling you that you can't swim there. What happens when the blokes/birds go home after they knock off is anyone's guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's all a "laugh" isn't it!!! I have said a few times, if it was a pond, nobody would think twice, so maybe the solution is to let the water turn green and move some frogs in.My long term solution is to cover the pool. (Wooden decking boards on frames, that lift over the pool when we are not there, and are lifted off, on to the concrete surround to form the pool side walking areas when we are), in conjunction with the alarm. The alarm means I have at least one of the required modes, the cover (way to heavy for kids to lift off) giving me the peace of mind (though not I understand confirm to the code, but then the alarm is there!!!) as nothing will fit through the gaps.Trust me, I understand that every country makes laws that don't quite make sense, and are frought with grey areas, that's how we can never win!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I'm not sure on that one Steve? Safety covers must comply to NF P90-308. so who knows?A friend of ours put a really nice fence around his pool. Higher than the 1.3 metres stated and a gate that closed and locked, but it was not regarded as a correct fence. Stupid, but then who ever said that the law need not be stupid. I suppose it's to deter folk who would chuck up a lot of tat and claim it was OK?How big is your pool? Because if it's any size a board cover that will support anything at all is going to weigh at least a couple of hundred kilos? That's taking the weight of cedar, a light weight wood, into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yes, I have been in the process of calculating thelikely weight!!!Our pool is 10 x 4 metres, so I envisaged 5 2x4 (obviously a little bigger to go over the edge) panels, but I had been thinking they't be heavy old things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 This may give you an idea?http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_wood.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 " 5 2x4" ???There are the joists to consider toohttp://www.home-extension.co.uk/tech2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 Although I have meet someone who has an approved alarm, and a removable 9v electric fence, which he says is "to keep animals out"!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I leave the lawyers to argue the case but fitting one of the approved devices and providing it is working you are complying. If you are out shopping etc and someone goes in that's their issue, you have complied. To say you must be there is ridiculous because it doesn't say that and that is almost saying you must have a life guard within earshot of the alarm permanently.You do not in the case of an alarm have to respond within 14 seconds, The alarm must respond to an immersion within 14 seconds.The government had the opportunity to look at devices properly before passing the decree after all they had AFNOR test each one and they decided it was ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1steveuk Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 Thank you Theiere, that's how I read it. If it's sensible or not, that's how it reads to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Department71 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 So I take it the French government are going to put fences and alarms around all the open lakes etc that the public can access, plus of course the Med! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 [quote user="Department71"]So I take it the French government are going to put fences and alarms around all the open lakes etc that the public can access, plus of course the Med![/quote]A country which has a law that rules that when travelling at 50kph on a main road you have to give way to traffic driving straight into your path from your right is capable of just about anything [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 No Nomoss. Lakes, rivers, canals and the sea are exempt and are not dangerous because they aren't designed for swimming and therefore are impossible to drown in [:-))]And as a Napoleonic law it can't possibly be wrong, but be careful, because it ain't just on 50k limit roads. There's a boat load of 90k jobbies out there too. It's quite logical if you think about it. After all, it's impossible to see what traffic is coming until you have at least the front 2 horses of the 4 pulling yer cart out into the main road you are joining, init. Call me ls fashioned, but it just seems like logique to me.[8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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