Spa/Hot Tub - any views?

[ChezTinns]

Hi All.   We have a holiday home in the Gers which is only used by us and not rented out.  We manage to get out to France every 5 weeks or so, either for a long weekend or longer in the summer.  Whilst it can get very hot in the summer and we do not have room for a pool, and are now considering a Hot Tub/spa.  Does anyone have any experience of keeping one - especially if you are not there all the time?  What would we need to do beforehand - e.g. electricity wise?  Also, if you have any recommendations - types of spa, or suppliers please do not hesitate to PM me.

Many thanks, JT

[Clair]

There have been quite a few threads about this topic already.

Start here: http://www.completefrance.com/cs/search/SearchResults.aspx?q=hot%20tub&f=&u=

[The Ps]

It is possible to have a spa (acrylic type) or hot tub (wooden barrel) in such circumstances and manage them well without any issues.  I have sold to clients all over France in similar situations.   When we sell a spa or hot tub we are thorough in teaching people how to look after them in different set ups (private, commercial or a combination) and we are happy to provide information and verbal/written assistance to anyone without obligation who owns a spa or hot tub as to not look after one properly can lead to all sorts of scenarios.

I would estimate that 90% of spas and hot tubs are sold with a Balboa control system and these systems allow you to set up a spa or hot tub in different modes - standard, economy and sleep.

Standard will run the system filtration either 24 hours a day or filter 2 hours x 2 times a day depending on how the spa or hot tub control system is configured.   The pump will also kick in outside of the filter cycles to maintain temperature.

Economy will run the filtration as above but will not kick in to maintain temperature so the spa or hot tub is only heated to the set temperature during the filter cycle

Sleep will run the filtration as above but will not kick in to heat the spa or hot tub as with economy.   The system will only try and heat the spa or hot tub to within 11 degrees of the set temperature during the filter cycle.   So when you go away, set your temperature as low as possible (generally 26 degrees) and the system will heat up to 15 degrees.

To back this up you will have robust insulation that means even in standard mode you will be spending no more that 70 cents a day (proven in the Alps) in winter and about 10 cents a day in the summer - it depends on ambiant air temperatures, insulation  and usage.  

You will also need to think about water balancing and this is the most important thing.   Before you depart you should make sure your Alkalinity and pH is balanced and that you have a sanitiser feeder or use a floating sanitiser dispenser that will dispense chlorine or bromine over a period of time.   You should also apply a non chlorine shock to give your sanitisers a fighting chance whilst you are not there.   You are also better off using bromine as it is a slow release sanitiser that copes better with hot water.   If you are in a commercial environment (not in your case) then only use chlorine.

You can also buy spas and hot tubs with ozonators, ionisers, pH adjusters and salt systems that will do a lot of the work for you but remember you are still obliged to test to make sure all is working.

When you return you should test the spa or hot tub before doing anything and balance and sanitise as necessary, certainly applying a shock treatment again.  Then if you left it in sleep mode, return it to standard mode and adjust yor temperature up.   It will take just under an hour per degree to warm up.

If you have a power cut whilst absent the spa or hot tub system should reset itself and re-prime itself and then carry on as normal when the power comes back on.

You can of course drain down and refill a spa but not a hot tub.   The hot tub needs the moisture to retain its watertightness.  

To drain down a spa, shock it and get the jets working for 15 minutes, turn off the power and drain down.   You need to remove as much water as possible because of the potential freezing of standing water in pipes and pumps.  Then when you get back refill it, shock again (you never get rid of all the old water), balance and sanitise then wait for it to heat up - this time of year with water going in at 7 to 9 degrees don't expect to use it that night.

I would also recommend using Spa Flush once or twice a year to remove biofilm from your pipes - you can do this when in residence.

If you have any other questions do not hesitate to ask here or PM or email me; I am happy to help.

[ChezTinns]

Thank you Clair and The Ps very much for your help!  I think this has made our decision for us!

[The Ps]

I had one of those moments during the night where a thought came to me that I did not include in the last post: -

If you are going to be away for longer than 8 weeks between visits with noone to keep an eye on the santiser level then you should think about turn the spa of and draining down unless you have suitably installed sanitisation protection like an ioniser for example.

[Théière]

Did someone mention ioniser? [;-)]

What ever you do don't ask me about ionisers, I am completely biased, I may try, as I do have a commercial and financial interest, to sell you one [:D][:P]

[baypond]

I would buy another Hot tub tomorrow if someone would guarantee a way of avoiding the excrutiating rash I used to get with the old one. The children always avoided it so not sure why I was so susceptable.

[Théière]

That's life as they say,

What chemical did you use in the hot tub?

[baypond]

mostly chlorine, started with powder, and then moved to tablets to try and keep the chlorine levels up. There seems to be differing opinion as to the cause of the rash. I thought it was chemical related, but looking further in to it, it could i guess have been bacterial. We also tried the non chlorine chemicals (can't remember the name). 

I actually wondered, given the success we have with a salt water swimming pool, if there isnt a salt based chlorinator option for hot tubs?

[Théière]

Never been a fan of chlorine for hot tubs especially if you have air being pumped in. It liberates chloramines at the surface where you generally are sitting and breathing them in far more than a swimming pool. 

Starting to open an old wound, could you explain the success that you have had with salt water chlorinated swimming pool that could not be obtained using straight chlorination?

[The Ps]

It would almost certainly be bacterial and probably pseudomonas.   Some people can react to chlorine but you would have to be very unfortunate to be one.   Pseudomonas is commonly known as hot tub rash and in extreme cases can be painful and require antibiotics, though being extreme, this is rare.

Hot tubs and spas looked after properly will never present a health issue but they do have to be looked after.

There are various products on the market that can assist you in what you are trying to acheive and they all work to varying degrees.   Ionisers can be fitted retrospectively, as can ozonators and there are also salt systems similar to pools on the market - of course, there is always the ongoing debate about chlorine & salt generators etc but it has been and is being done to death elsewhere and I leave it to others.

All of these things though are mere alternatives or back up devices for sanitising properly and in that respect it is about budget v's benefit, ease of use and understanding how to use what you have.   Sadly, no-one can guarantee that you will not suffer again as you could have something recommended to you that gets affected by other factors, e.g. bather loads.   What I do know is that no-one I have sold  to has ever had an issue with hot tub rash because we set them up right.   As a supplier of such things it would be remiss not to ensure I spend time with the client teaching them how to look after the spa or hot tub and then checking their undertsanding.   We also offer ongoing support and we offer free water testing to anyone, regardless of whether they bought from us and whether they ever intend to.

If a supplier chooses to operate in this market then there are responsibilities that go with it and you should only buy from some-one who takes those responsibilities seriously and that doesn't have to be me- there are several responsible traders in the marketplace; and some that are challenging in the way they do business.

You would benefit from using bromine in a spa or hot tub as it is less likely to cause a reaction on skin and it is slower releasing and copes better with the higher temperatures you woudl expect in a spa or hot tub than chlorine, whether added or generated.   Of course, the most important thing is to ensure your pH and alkalinity are within the acceptable ranges as this will impact on how your sanitisers work as well.

Getting in to the habit of applying a non chlorine shock after the final bathing session of the day (or whenever you get a zero reading on your sanitiser test) is good practice.   It will kill harmful bacteria and allow your sanitiser to build up again overnight to a safe level as opposed to not using it where you will find that your sanitiser is tackling bacteria as it dissapates without building a safe level up for bathers.  Imagine, if you didn't do this, you woudl be closing the lid on contaminated water that is being heated up overnight.

No-one should get into a spa or hot tub without showering of with water.   Sun lotions and make up are a problem too - as with soap residues in hair and costumes.   In fact a bald naked man, showered and not using deodorant is the only person who should get into a spa or hot tub.............it's a disturbing image though.

You should also clean out your filters on a regular basis and you are better to have two sets of filters so you can clean one, let them dry and use the other set in the meantime.   Cleaning is more important than two sets of filters.   Periodically, as part of the cleaning process you should clean them in a filter cleaning solution.

You should change your water at the right frequency.   Unlike pools with a large volume of water, spas and hot tubs have a lower bather load and whilst it is not a hard and fast rule (there are formuli out there to make it hard and fast) if you have a spa or hot tub with 1500 litres of water in it, you should change it every 150 to 180 uses (one person for half an hour = one use).   So if you have a 1500 litre volume spa or hot tub in a rental property you should probably be changing the water every week.

Another thing that helps avoid hot tub rash is to clean your pipes out a couple of times a year with Spaflush or a similar type of product.   Over time, biofilm will build up in pipework and this is like a brown sludge that protects the bacteria.   Spaflush will strip this away and allow the sanistisers to do their work.   It should be done for whirlpool baths as well.

All of the above is a must even if you install ionisers, ozonators or chlorine generators.   You may use less water and chemicals with some of these systems but you still need to check your levels to make sure all is well and you will still need some form of back up, e.g. you may install a salt generator but you should still shock at the end of the day even though you spa or hot tub system will be continually producing chlorine.

You can also think about only using microban filters or buying spas and hot tubs  with microban shells and pipework.   Bacteria is supposed to be killed when it comes into contact with microban treated products - of course, there is still a huge volume of water by comparison not touching the microban surface so you still need sanitisers.

I hope that I have not or am not putting people off the thought of owning a hot tub or spa but as I said before, it would be remiss not to let everyone know the full picture.   They are great relaxing products with many health benefits and are used commercially in health and sporting environments all over the world as well as by private individuals who want to ease their pains, make their life a little more bearable and to sleep easier.

However, just to make sure I get everyone turned off [:D] make sure you get advice before using a spa or hot tub if you have heart problems, are diabetic or have high blood pressure.   Never get in one if you are pregnant and children under 4 do not have sufficiently developed bodies to cope with the heat.   Never use one if you are suffering from an ilness.

 

[baypond]

Is there an easy test for pseudomonas being present in sufficient density to trigger a reaction?

Also congratulations on your honesty, not least the fact that hot tubs need constant attention, and can't just be left to fend for themselves!

 

 

[chem geek]

Take a look at the chart on [url=http://apsp.org/APSPRWQE-news/Jan16/rash.htm]this link[/url] to see if you can determine whether your rash is a chemical sensitivity or bacterial.  As John (The P's) points out, chemical sensitivity to chlorine is very rare (sensitivity to bromine is more common, though most people are fine with either).

As for bacteria tests such as [url=http://www.aquasafe-uk.com/test_strips.html]AquaSafe[/url] and [url=http://www.discovertesting.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=45&catid=8&loc=show&headTitle=Watersafe%C2%AE%20Rapid%20Bacteria%20Pool%20Test%20Kit]Watersafe[/url], they are not specific to Pseudomonas so can tell you if you've got uncontrolled bacterial growth, but not whether there is specifically Pseudomonas.  Also, with Pseudomonas aeruginosa, the bacteria that causes hot tub itch/rash/lung, it tends to quickly form biofilms so may not measure in free-floating water, but then "break off" from a surface and find a break in your skin.  This bacteria is ubiquitous and opportunisitic (see [url=http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/pseudomonas.html]this link[/url] for detail on this bacteria).  The key is to not let the bacteria grow and form biofilms in the first place.  That means being diligent about maintaining sanitizer levels at all times (one possible exception noted below).

As for keeping a spa safe, I kept track of hot tub rash/itch/lung incidents on a hot tub forum and out of the 36 incidents reported over the years, most were due to zero or low sanitizer levels though some occurred after 1-2 months of continued use of Dichlor as the sole source of sanitation.  Since for every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Dichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 9 ppm and since around 2 teaspoons of Dichlor (equivalent to 4 ppm FC per day in 350 gallons) was usually dosed, the CYA level would quickly build up to over 100 in one month making the chlorine significantly less effective.  To prevent the CYA build-up, I suggested using Dichlor initially for about a week or two to get to 20-40 ppm CYA and then to switch to using unscented bleach (6% Clorox Regular unscented has the least "excess lye" so the lowest pH rise).  This method is described by Nitro [url=http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13634]here[/url].  One cannot just use bleach to start with because the active chlorine level would be too high and would more rapidly degrade hot tub covers and other components.  Chemicals should be added slowly over a circulation return flow with the pump running.  During the time when bleach is used, the TA needs to be kept low in order to minimize the rate of pH rise due to carbon dioxide outgassing (pools and spas are intentionally over-carbonated which is what TA mostly measures).  Using 50 ppm Borates helps as an additional pH buffer to keep the pH from rising as quickly (targetting a slightly higher pH, such as 7.7, helps as well).

To avoid the smell of chlorine during the soak, many people let the chlorine level get low to 1-2 ppm FC before they soak.  Technically, this means that the chlorine will get used up and at some point during the soak the water will not be sanitized, but since people generally don't soak for more than about an hour, they can kill the bacteria by dosing with sufficient chlorine right after they get out of the tub.  The most common problem is that people don't use enough sanitizer or oxidizer.  Enough should be used such that there is a measurable residual of sanitizer before the next soak.  A rough rule-of-thumb is that every person-hour of soaking takes 3-1/2 teaspoons (17 grams or milliliters) of Dichlor or 7 teaspoons (34 grams or milliliters) of non-chlorine shock (MPS) to oxidize the bather waste (ammonia/urea from sweat/urine).  This is around 7 ppm FC in 350 gallons; the more typical dosage of 2 teaspoons corresponds to roughly 2 people soaking for 15 minutes or 1 person soaking for a half-hour.

If you aren't going to be able to maintain a sanitizer level in the tub at almost all times (i.e. except perhaps for an hour a day during a soak), then using an ionizer system, specifically with silver metal ions, can help.  Silver slowly kills bacteria so it can help to prevent uncontrolled bacteria growth though doesn't kill fast enough to prevent person-to-person transmission.  It does not reduce the amount of sanitizer or oxidizer you need to get rid of bather waste (an ozonator can do that, but has other issues).  Silver ionization should be considered as an insurance policy in case the sanitizer level gets too low.

One can use a combination of silver ionization and non-chlorine shock (MPS) and not have chlorine, but the level of MPS that must be maintained is sometimes high enough to cause irritation or chemical sensitivity in some people.  This is the "low chlorine" recipe in the [url=http://www.nature2.com/spaproducts/nature2spa.asp=]Nature2[/url] product.  It is less irritating than using MPS without silver ion (the silver ion speeds up a reaction to get rid of the irritating contaminant component in MPS).

As John pointed out, a bromine system can use a floating dispenser with bromine tablets so is more convenient if you aren't going to be able to regularly add sanitizer to the water as you would need to do with chlorine.  Some people are chemically sensitive to bromine while some find the smell from bromine more offensive.  There are two types of bromine tablets -- BCDMH that contains both bromine and chlorine and DBDMH that contains only bromine.  Some people prefer the DBDMH though it is harder to find.

Richard

[The Ps]

There are simple tests available on the market but I would only consider it necessary if you are frequently encountering high bather use.   You might consider it a moral obligation if you are letting property.   And as Chem Geek points out, they are not specific in identifying bacteria types.   You can take a sample to a lab but that takes time so prevention is the best approach.   Prevention is better than cure so you should make sure you have a regime in place that keeps the spa or hot tub safe all of the time.   It is ok to leave your spa or hot tub for a few weeks if you set it up in the right way on the back of such a regime.  

If the spa or hot tub is in constant use I would check it once a day (takes less than 5 minutes) and if it is in a rental property I would advocate 3 times a day but certainly no less than 2.   If you run chambre d'hotes, gites or chalets for example, you or staff are on hand to attend to this and I have statistical evidence that shows a spa or hot tub will increase your income so that should offset the time/money equation (apart from the initial capital outlay of course, which depending on your circumstances could take a while to get back - within a year in a ski chalet for example).   If you have a rental property visited once a week or fortnight by a property manager, though it may lose me sales, I would strongly urge you to think twice about having a hot tub or spa and certainly think about the back up systems (ioniser etc) that you could put in place if you go ahead anyway.

Incidentally, you should also keep records of your tests and should note the before and after, what you did in between, did your guests have a heavy night (the next morning feeling may not be due to the spa or hot tub), did any guests arrive on holiday ill.   Note damage and repairs also.   This not an exclusive list but just some suggestions.

The tests we undertake free for people is about prevention and will put the water sample through 10 different tests - pH, sanitiser total and free, alkalinity, calcium hardness, cyanuric acid, copper, iron, nitrates and borates and TDS .   We can then advice on water regimes to help you prevent bacterial issues.   This may involve a change of regime and/or the purchase of chemicals currently not used.   If you adopt the new regime or where you buy your chemicals is all down to you.   We hope you buy from us of course but the greater good in making sure the spa and hot tub industry is seen as clean and safe, plus the moral obligation we feel means it is a chance we are willing to take and in reality the tests cost us very little; time being the biggest constituent.

[ChezTinns]

Thank you all so much for your replies and sharing such knowledge.  A spa/hot tub seemed such a simple solution, now my head is reeling.  I think I might just stand under the hosepipe instead!

JT

[The Ps]

JT

It can be so simple but I guess my answers and others on here are trying to cover off everything.

The bottom line is; understand your needs and find a product to meet them (same as anything really).   Then establish a routine (that can be simple) and stick to it.

It is nice to know you appreciated the advice and I am sure others will also benefit in making an informed decision as well.

I am also sorry that your head was reeling.........................now what you need is somewhere to relax with a glass of wine, soothing waters and massage jets........see, now I'm thining I need to tell you only to use plastic glasses in a hot tub or spa and people need to watch how much they drink in such environments. Doh!!

[Poolguy]

I have a number of Companies who install the Autodosing chlorine an pH control in much the same way as swimming pools. It does not mean however that all that has been discussed above is illiminated but it is certainly reduced to a bear minimum, and the information provided by the machine is electronic accurate (1ppbillion). These companies are very happy with the results as the clients get a sanitised tub all the time, ready to plunge. They are largely for rental properties there by assuring the water quality and test by DDASS. SO easier solutions exist but naturally you'll need to add a bit extra to the budget to allow for the automation.

Andrew

[Théière]

[quote user="The Ps"]

Hot tubs and spas looked after properly will never present a health issue but they do have to be looked after.

There are various products on the market that can assist you in what you are trying to acheive and they all work to varying degrees.   Ionisers can be fitted retrospectively, as can ozonators and there are also salt systems similar to pools on the market - of course, there is always the ongoing debate about chlorine & salt generators etc but it has been and is being done to death elsewhere and I leave it to others.

All of the above is a must even if you install ionisers, ozonators or chlorine generators.   You may use less water and chemicals with some of these systems but you still need to check your levels to make sure all is well and you will still need some form of back up, e.g. you may install a salt generator but you should still shock at the end of the day even though you spa or hot tub system will be continually producing chlorine.

You can also think about only using microban filters or buying spas and hot tubs  with microban shells and pipework.   Bacteria is supposed to be killed when it comes into contact with microban treated products - of course, there is still a huge volume of water by comparison not touching the microban surface so you still need sanitisers.

[/quote]

There are lots of ionisers on the market and a few scare stories (staining). Generally the money is in the controll box and that is important, just as with any other system if you don't controll it properly it will give rise to problems. Ionisers coupled with a non chlorine alternative will be sufficient for a domestic situation.  Poolguy quite correctly points out if the hot tub or spa is being used by more than one family the DDASS rules apply and that means only chlorine.

The use of ozone or UV with chlorine produces even more undesirable effects at the surface of water and just above where you are likely to breath them in. In the case of ozone which is an excellent sanitiser but ozone can be very dangerous to humans.  There is research going on at the moment in France which may outlaw these systems.

 

[The Ps]

With ionisers you also get a copper testing kit (if not you should buy one though reputable suppliers and fitters should provide one as standard) and the copper is the source of most staining.   There are ionisers on the market that are for pools and there are ionisers on the market for spas and hot tubs.   Those specifically for spas and hot tubs can, in most cases, be plumbed in to the existing pipework and run off the spa or hot tub controls without the need for their own control systems.   If you have an entry point spa or hot tub you may not find this is do-able and it depends on the control system (Balboa are particularly good and are in most spas or hot tubs regardless of manufacturer).

I would also agree with Poolguy having made the point originally that you should only use chlorine if you are in a commercial environment.   Everyone would be amazed at how many commercial operations do not comply with this though but I guess that this is no different to the pool systems in rental villas up and down the country where there is some ambiguity.

There are ozone systems specifically designed for spas and hot tubs that have charcoal filters in them that ensure ozone is not allowed to escape into the spa, hot tub or atmosphere and are safe for use inside and externally.   Ozone is probably the most efficient naturally occurring element used as a sanitiser in the universe; it kills things.   A large build up would not be good for people however, but to put it into some context or frame of reference, there are many 100's of 1,000's of spas and hot tubs worldwide with ozonators fitted as standard by the manufacturers in the build process and no deaths at all as a result of exposure to ozone either in the usage of the product or in the test bays of the manufacturers.

The ozone systems on spas and hot tubs are safe; take it from a professionally experienced, trained and qualified spa and hot tub engineer who understands all aspects of spa and hot tub systems and trained and accredited by industry bodies in chemicals handling, storage and use (and a qualified plumber). 

I would also add weight to Poolguys other comments about the need for control and adherence in commercial environments.   I have walked away from sales before because it would not have been appropriate to have what the client wanted in a commercial environment; they have either wanted a cheap spa for the wrong job or lacked the staff or willingness to implement the necessary controls to ensure public safety.