Personnes Inactives....at what age?

[Benjamin]

From an answer given to me on another thread a couple of days ago it appears that for the most part the standard French retirement age (with some notable exceptions) is 60 years.

If the standard UK retirement age for men is 65 years (for the time being at least) will the French authorities be applying this age or their own retirement age to either include or exclude  people  from entitlement to join CMU?

Maybe those UK males aged between 60 and 65 years have nothing to worry about whatever the outcome from this sorry debacle.

 

[ebaynut]

Benjamin,

As I understand it, the French are not going to let anyone who is inactive from the EU join its health system or stay in it if they have an E106, and remain inactive once it expires, regardless of age.

It is when you become 65 and receive UK state pension that you can receive an E121, which lets you join the French system and the UK picks up the bills for the health cover.

[Cat]

That is the way I understand it too ebaynut, the only healthcare that will be available to British "inactifs" will be funded through private insurance or (in the case of E106 and E121) by the UK.  People who have taken early retirement, even if they recieve a private or company pension, will not be entitled to free healthcare until they reach "state" retirement age and are entitled to a UK state pension.

Or, to put it another way, France will not pick up the bill for healthcare for British inactifs.

[Will]

Yes, it's not a matter of age. It's a matter of eligibility for the E121, which follows the state retirement age in one's own country, or may be granted in cases of incapacity.

[chessfou]

Yes, I think the only remaining question in this precise area is what happens to a husband (under 65) when his wife reaches the age of 60 and (necessary pre-condition) receives a state pension (and therefore E121) in her own right.

It seems to have been common (various mentions on several of the current threads) for this "dependency" to have been accepted in the past and for the husband to be accepted by CPAM on that basis.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="chessfou"]Yes, I think the only remaining question in this precise area is what happens to a husband (under 65) when his wife reaches the age of 60 and (necessary pre-condition) receives a state pension (and therefore E121) in her own right.

It seems to have been common (various mentions on several of the current threads) for this "dependency" to have been accepted in the past and for the husband to be accepted by CPAM on that basis.
[/quote]But only if the wife's E121 states that it covers members of her family depending upon and living with her - I assume in this case that means that the UK picks up the o/h's tab.

[Will]

Yes again, and only if the husband (in your example) is truly dependant, i.e. he has no other income. He cannot 'piggy back' onto his wife's E121 to avoid paying cotisations, from a business, from gite rentals, or even from an occupational pension. This has always been the case, and it looks likely to remain so.

[cooperlola]

Whatever happens, I think it is most unlikely that any existing rules and regs will be relaxed in order for those who are affected to sneak in through any back doors once the  changes take place - in whatever form. "Signing on" as unemployed, trying to get French nationality, claiming that you are or would be at French retirement age etc etc will, I imagine, be viewed with more suspiscion than before, rather than less.  Anybody who followed the new President's election campaign won't expect much sympathy for our position : "Go back where you came from if you can't afford to live here" seems to be the pretty clear message.

[Chris]

Will,

Your post seemed to run contrary to good professional advice I had been given and prompted me to ring Newcastle to confirm that I, at 59,  will come under the cover of my wife's E121 starting this November.  The answer was an emphatic yes, provided I had been included as a dependent on the E121. Actually, I completed the E121 and it seems I had not done this. A replacement form will be in the post tonight and then another trip to the CPAM.

So, the upshot seems to be that, as my French financial adviser quite correctly briefed me a few months ago, and confirmed by Newcastle a few minutes ago, I will continue to enjoy the cover of the CMU via my wife's E121.

Of course Sarko and his hoods can do anything they like in the meantime, and round up all blond,  blue eyed foreigners for deportation, but I am not thinking about that yet and remaining positive.

Chris

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Benjamin"]

If the standard UK retirement age for men is 65 years (for the time being at least) will the French authorities be applying this age or their own retirement age to either include or exclude  people  from entitlement to join CMU?

 

[/quote]

For information only, the above quote is only part of my original posting.

I always thought, perhaps naively that the concept of the European Union was to treat everyone equally. I cannot see why, if a French person over the age of 60 years stays in the French Health System, then the same cannot apply to a person from (let's keep it simple and say a British person) who is over 60 so long as that person is Tax Resident and pays whatever is demanded of them into the French System.

On the other hand it might be a better idea to tackle the British Government and ask them under equality laws to issue E121's to any early retired male who is 60 years or over in the same way that a British female over the age of 60 is entitled is entitled to an E121.

There are plenty of precedents for this in UK law e g legislation has been passed to equalise the British retirement. Bus passes and eye tests (there may be other, better, examples but I don't know them) have been equalised for both British males and females.

[Will]

Chris, yes, if you are truly 'non-actif' and not getting loads of income there should be no reason why you cannot be included on your spouse's E121 as a dependant, whatever age you are. I said what I said because in the past people have seen piggy-backing onto another's E form or salaried contributions as a way of avoiding paying cotisations in France to which they would otherwise be liable. Some have even got away with it. The clutching at straws in the current health assurance debate shows the lengths some seem prepared to go to to assert what they see as their right to free treatment, even though they have chosen to live outside the country where such treatment is available to them.

Benjamin - you mention British law. But such law has little or no effect in France, which operates on a different (Napoleonic) legal system rather than the common-law based British law. Just as the underlying principles of the NHS and CMU are quite different, and, as it now turns out, quite incompatible once the E forms are removed.

[chessfou]

[quote]I said what I said because in the past people have seen piggy-backing

onto another's E form or salaried contributions as a way of avoiding

paying cotisations in France to which they would otherwise be liable.[Will][/quote]

Not necessarily. I see "piggy-backing" on an E121 (if possible) as potentially a way of getting the UK (to which I paid my "cotisations" -a.k.a. NI - and taxes for many years) to cover the cost of CMU base here since it seems that I am going to be precluded from making the relevant contribution (admittedly less than €3,750 p.a. but not all that much less and, from memory, more than about 75-80% of the residents of our département pay) once our E106s expire.

[Will]

How many times do we need to say that having paid tax and NI in Britain, for however many years, does not give you any entitlement to use the French health service? If you want French benefits, then you should work (easier said than done, I know) and/or pay contributions in France.

[BJSLIV]

The UK may include a 55 year old husband on a 60 year old wife's E121, however the question is whether the French will accept the 55 year old as a dependant.

If the wife has only a UK OAP as income and the husband has a full company pension, then it is unlikely that the French will grant "Ayant droit" status, particularly in a climate which is aiming to reduce the drain on the French system.

I know that the UK pays the bill, however this is thought to be insufficient to cover the true costs.

[Will]

Bjsliv - right again, as always. What is often missed in discussions about E forms is that although Brussels may produce guidelines, the actual acceptance of the forms, and the period for which they are accepted, is solely down to agreement between the issuing country and the country where the form is being used. Often such agreement comes down to individual cases.

[chessfou]

[quote]How many times do we need to say that having paid tax and NI in

Britain, for however many years, does not give you any entitlement to

use the French health service? If you want French benefits, then you

should work (easier said than done, I know) and/or pay contributions in

France.[Will][/quote]

I have no idea how many times you need to say that but it has no relevance whatsoever to my message. Here is a simpler version of what I said:

- it appears I won't be allowed to pay (€X,000 p.a. in anticipated contributions for CMU after E106 expiry) to use the health service;

- I would like the UK to pay (via E121, "piggy-backing" if possible).

[Ron Avery]

Benjamin wrote "......or over in the same way that a British female over the age of 60 is entitled to an E121"

........ and how many times do we have to say that women over 60 are only entitled to an E 121 in their own right if they are in receipt of the UK old age pension?.

Benjamin take 100 lines, "I must remember that women over 60 are only entitled to an E 121 in their own right if they are in receipt of the UK old age pension" and no cut and paste like last time[:D]. 

[BJSLIV]

 I would like the UK to pay

And so would many others.

If Newcastle will include you on your wife's E121, please let us know how it is received by the French in the current climate.

Benjamin     Men and women are treated equally by the UK system. They  are both entitled to receive an E121 at the appropriate statutory retirement age,  which is of course gradually being equalised at 67. That is of course assuming that they have paid enough to qualify for a pension......

[chessfou]

[quote]If Newcastle will include you on your wife's E121, please let us know how it is received by the French in the current climate.[BJSLIV][/quote]

Well, it's 18 months away, so the climate will have changed somewhat (better? worse?) but if it applies and if I remember ...

Your earlier point (wife with UK state and husband with company pension), though, won't apply. It's my wife who has the sumptuous company pension (now) and will add a minimal (30% or so) UK state pension but (at that time, her 60th) her total will be comfortably double my Personal Pension (I have more to come after 60 and after 65).

[Chris]

Yes and I too, but the state now appears only to want my cash if I earn it now through sweat of my brow until retirement age.  Absolute nonsense.  My gite 'business' doesn't count as a proper job, or so other posts reveal, so I am scuppered there. More nonsense.

I am apparently, therefore, by its definition, inactif and unemployed; my government pension and declared gite income not being relevant to whether or not I may join the CMU through contributions. Therefore, it follows that I will be totally dependant on my wife's government pension and OAP when she gets them.  The state can't have it both ways:  either I have sufficient revenue to contribute in my own right so that I am no more of a burden than anyone working, or I am not, and am my wife's dependant.

Incidentally, when I rang DWP yesterday to check on my status on her E121, I was told that I was not shown as a dependent. After checking her 121 at their end, DWP are sending a replacement E121 now showing me as such.  I did not ask to be made a dependent but it seemed to be assumed that I would be. It will be 'fun' returning to the CPAM and inviting them to tear up the original and replace it with the new one.

Whether contibutions to NI, URSSAF and  the amount of cash passed from UK to France to pay for us,  is adiscussion 'above our pay scale' and irrelevant. The only valid question is am I entitled to an E107 to be a dependent on her E121. The answer from those at DWP, paid and qualified to answer, seems to be that I am.  

We are spending time exchanging thoughts, and concerns, swapping experiences and getting steamed up at our own computers. At the end of September I suspect the crunch will come (assuming it's coming at all).  What do we do then?  Storming the Bastille has already been done; it's not there anymore and would perhaps be the wrong target. Ensuring that the British Embassy and UK MEPs are aware of our 'unrest'  might be a good start. There are supposedly over 250,000 UK citizens in France plus other EU nationals. This is not an insignificant number to concentrate the politcal mind. Perhaps a start towards coordination might be for one of the 'French' newspapers; Connexion or French News to exercise some good jounalism and get going on mobilising 'the troops' and making life less comfortable for those in Brussels and Westminster who are paid to solve problems.

I understand that many posters have sought to give answers to others' comments and fears.  Some are clearly well informed and intentioned.  This sudden change of circumstances has made many of us feel like rabbits caught in the headlights and we are going down the 'victim' route, apparently accepting  what might happen.  Scanning the posts,  there is sufficient evidence out there now to show that 'something' unpleasant is afoot and it is time to plan for the offensive, if it is required, after 30 September. There must be a retired legal brain out there who might enjoy the challenge of just one more brief!

Chris (becoming Mr Angry from Charente!)

[Benjamin]

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Sorry Ron - lack of attention to detail [:$].

[Benjamin]

Will I understand why you get a bit tetchy with people trying to apply British law to French situations but I was actually referring to tackling the British Government about this situation.

It has already been established in British legislation that there will be an equalisation of retirement for male and female retirees although I don't think this has affected any retiring female as yet.

The point I was trying to make was that in certain areas i e bus passes , eye tests, prescription charges, NI contributions for non working males resident in the UK (and as I said in my earlier post there may be other, better examples) it has already become accepted practise that males between the ages of 60 and 65 years are entitled to the same treatment as females. Why can't the British Government now decide to issue E121's to males aged over 60 years in the same way that females (who are receiving UK State reirement pensions) receive them?

It may be that the British Government chose to ignore the plight of ex residents of the UK in the same way that they refuse benefits to people who have contributed for most of their working lives just because they have decided to relocate to another EU member country where we were all led to believe we were free to reside as if we were resident in our original member country. Isn't this , after all, what the European Community/Common Market is all about?

[BJSLIV]

Why can't the British Government now decide to issue E121's to males aged over 60 year

Because to issue the E121 at age 60 it would have to pay pensions at the same age, something that it cannot afford to do at 65, hence the planned increase to 67. The E121 is a certificate that says that the person holding it in receipt of a retirement or invalidity benefit.

[Benjamin]

We're talking Government here. [:D]

They can break the link between E121's and retirement pensions if they so chose.

[Sunday Driver]

If they break the link between E121s and pensions (ie, issue the E121 at 60), they would have to pay your French healthcare costs for those additional five years - which they don't have to do at present.

£££££££££.......[;-)]