No Caisse will take us?

[Cassis]

We've been trying to affiliate to a Caisse, get them to accept our E106 and so obtain our Cartes Vitales for almost a year now.  We started with the CPAM, they passed us to the CMR (with a fleeting visit to another caisse en route - the CAM?), and we have been bounced between these two several times since.

We both took early retirement to come to France (late 40's).  Our income is from savings and investments, topped up by a small B&B income (3 rooms on our first floor). 

The business is not registered with the Chamber of Commerce or anything - they said that in our situation it was neither necessary nor worthwhile, and we should simply declare our B&B income on our tax return (we should get our first tax form, for 2005, soon).

The CPAM says the CMR should take us, the CMR the opposite.

Help!  Who should we be leaning on?

Phil & Jude

[Ron Avery]

Your problem is that you are neither one thing or the other.  You are retired but working.

 Get CPAM to write down why they think you are not their responsibility, which I would have thought was pretty obvious as you are, like it or not in business, and take that to CMR.  On the tax front, I think you have been misinformed, in France it is common to get the wrong information from bureacrats, as your business is not exactly one room is it? 

 You may find that CMR insist you register as a chambre d'hote business, you would then pay cotisations that way and a lot more besides, perhaps Miki can help with this one, its more in his line of expertise.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

What you could try is going back to the CdC, explain your predicament

to them, and ask them if they would be so kind as to make a couple of

calls on your behalf. Depending upon the département you are in, some

CdCs seem very willing to help out on matters like this. Using one

govt. department against another is an old trick, and quite often

"professional" competitiveness can move mountains.

[Will]

I think that Ron is basically right. This is yet another indication of the confusion that exists about whether or not B&B and/or gites count as a business or a spare-time activity. In our case it was clear - when we were doing B&B it was definitely an add-on as we are both working - Mrs Conq salaried and me self-employed, so we were paying all our dues. It's when you have no other form of income on which the full range of cotisations are payable that things get very confused.

As you know, you have to affiliate to the French health and social security system in some way. The self-employed are affiliated through one of the CMRs (caisses d'assurances maladies regionales) though most actually make payments to one of over 100 insurance companies or mutuelles. It sounds as if CPAM regard you as self-employed, as you receive income from a business. As you have not had to register your business, though, your CMR does not recognise you.

You cannot affiliate directly to CMR in the way that the retired etc affiliate to CPAM. If you have a registered business you would normally affiliate through URSSAF (there are exceptions of course). That is because, as a business, you become liable for numerous other contributions as well as the health assurance charges. These include retirement funds, which are compulsory even if you are retired (or beyond retirement age) yourself, others, which will be collected by URSSAF, include allocation familiales (to pay for family allowances), chomage (unemployment assurance, which again you may not be eligible to benefit from yourself), professional training funds etc - not to mention CSG/CRDS which, in effect, is to cover the French national debt.

As you see, it is a minefield. The easy solution is to say that you need to register as a business, and this is what many people in your situation have found. You may like to look at http://www.frenchentree.com/france-employment-work-jobs/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=2234 which attempts to explain the French social security system, but unfortunately may only make you more confused (and does contain errors). But there is no easy solution - by registering, you may price yourself out of the market, so there may (and should) be ways of avoiding this. The CPAM English-speaking helpline on 0820 904 212 may, or may not, be able to help, but is probably worth a try.

The only real, positive, advice I can give is to speak to a financial advisor or accountant with expertise in French social matters. Miki is away at present, but would, I suspect, say you really need to be registered.

[Cassis]

Thank you all, Ron, Jon and Will.

When I contacted them last year and described our situation, the St Lo CPAM English helpline told us that we should affiliate with the Le Mans CPAM under Couverture Maladie Universelle Protection de Base.  Maybe they have different rules!

A couple of weeks ago we signed up with a financial advisor (VG Consulting, whom we found through AngloInfo, which Will mentioned somewhere else) to help with this year's tax return so I will re-contact him and see what he thinks about the health system affiliation question.  He's already aware that we need clarification on the business registration front and clearly the two things are interlinked.

Phil

[Will]

The CPAM helpline ought to know much better than I do, but it sounds to me as if they ignored the important question of your B&B income when advising you to register for CMU. As Ron said, French officials can often be wrong. Although the helpline has been invaluable for many people, on the one occasion I have tried asking something the very offhand woman at the other end of the phone refused to answer my question because she insisted my social security number was invalid and I had no health cover in France - not true, as my affiliation had moved to one of the caisses dealing with professions liberales, and in any case if what she said had been the case then I would surely be in dire need of their help. So I have a lot of sympathy with your current plight.

I think jond's advice of getting the two departments to speak to each other sounds pretty good.

If that doesn't get you anywhere then I am sure Vincent Grey will be able to help. He has a lot of contacts, e.g. French lawyers, notaires, accountants etc covering most disciplines. Of course such advice won't come cheap, but it could work out best in the long run.

[Cassis]

Thanks for the sympathy vote, Will.  Strange coincidence you should mention "professions liberales" - we went to see the travelling CPAM that comes to our area one morning a week, and the chap initially said that we should now ditch the CMR idea and contact the CAM (I think that was it) for "professions liberales".  I said "profession liberale" seemed like an unlikely category for our position and it was the CAM who had passed us on to the CMR.  After a minute of reflection he said he would re-consult our file and call us back on Tuesday. 

Meantime I've spoken to Vincent and he's going to look at our position over the weekend and advise us on Monday whether we should register the B&B - mainly from the financial/tax point of view, with the Caisse question a secondary issue.  Should we ever get to the bottom of this I'll let you know.

Have a good weekend, everyone

Phil

[Cassis]

Just to close this subject off (permanently, I hope).  At my latest meeting with a representative of the CPAM today he suggested that I sign an declaration (attestation) saying that we had ceased our B&B activity.  When I queried this(!) he said it was purely a formality to get us into the system and affiliated to the CPAM.  We could recommence the B&B activity tomorrow and no questions would be asked - we would continue to be affiliated to the CPAM.

Strikes us an odd connivance and a strange way to run a health system, but there you go.  We're hoping that's the end of it.

Phil

[Chas]

Not quite the same I know but to gain registration with CPAM we, both aged 63 and retired, had to sign an attestation that we would not seek employment of any description in France. 

[Owen]

Hello Cassis,

I am pleased everything has worked out OK for you. You have come up against a CPAM office who does not understand the rules about a B&B business. I put the word in italics because unless your income from such a venture is very substantial there is no need for it to be registered as a business and I suspect you fall in that category. Any income is subject to income tax (after allowances) but there is no need to register a business, change your caisse etc. The CPAM had no real reason to refuse you at all and their latest shenanigans about signing an attestation is just a bureaucratic cover up.

BUT the big mistake you made was volunteering information in the first place. This is an increasing fault that expats make. You should never have mentioned B&B activities to the CPAM. Some fonctionnaire latched on to you running a business (and refusing your affiliation) when actually this was not really the case at all. Before I come under withering attack I have to say that I am not suggesting anyone lies to the authorities but there is a difference between mendacity and the Anglo- Saxon characteristic of being "helpful". The latter, as you have found out, causes more obstacles and heartache than solutions.

Regards

Peter Owen

pjowen@expathealthdirect.co.uk

[Miki]

[quote user="Owen"]Hello Cassis,

I am pleased everything has worked out OK for you. You have come up

against a CPAM office who does not understand the rules about a B&B

business. I put the word in italics because unless your income from

such a venture is very substantial there is no need for it to be

registered as a business and I suspect you fall in that category. Any

income is subject to income tax (after allowances) but there is no need

to register a business, change your caisse etc. The CPAM had no real

reason to refuse you at all and their latest shenanigans about signing

an attestation is just a bureaucratic cover up.

BUT the big mistake you made was volunteering information in the first

place. This is an increasing fault that expats make. You should never

have mentioned B&B activities to the CPAM. Some fonctionnaire

latched on to you running a business (and refusing your affiliation)

when actually this was not really the case at all. Before I come under

withering attack I have to say that I am not suggesting anyone lies to

the authorities but there is a difference between mendacity and the

Anglo- Saxon characteristic of being "helpful". The latter, as you have

found out, causes more obstacles and heartache than solutions.

Regards

Peter Owen

pjowen@expathealthdirect.co.uk[/quote]

Peter,

How I heartily agree with you.

I have, over the years, had to say similar things along the same line,

to countless people who have unfortunately given too much uneccessary

info to a fonctionnaire who has taken it upon themselves to decipher

the rules and regs to their own meaning. As you say, it is not about

trying to cheat, it is about having the experience to know what to say,

when to and more importantly perhaps, who to.

The only obstacle now, is in the wording of the percentage of income

earned, as against any other income and what is the largest income (in

this case, earnings from  gites and B&B's) can now be thought

of as ones main income and it has been more or less agreed by many C de

Com, that if indeed, your main earnings are gained more from your

little or large (remember them !!) commerce, then you may well need to

register but.....................

.

[Cassis]

[quote user="Owen"]You should never have mentioned B&B activities to the CPAM. [/quote]

Absolutely right.  Another one of the many things that I can add to my list of 'With the benefit of hindsight I would have done it differently'.  And the chap who is advising us on tax matters also confirms what you say, that there is no obligation to register a small B&B with the Chamber of Commerce or any other business registry.

While we are very hopeful this time, I'm trying not to count any chickens till we actually get a letter confirming affiliation from the CPAM.

Phil