The magic 5 years

[AnOther]

On the tail of a post in another thread, I know much is still in limbo but that it's being suggested that anybody who's been resident for 5 years will be allowed to remain in CMU.

Will this be on a rolling basis I wonder, that is to say, once you have been resident for 5 years you get an automatic "in" ? 

[cooperlola]

 It is written into EUlaw:

Article 16

General rule for Union citizens and their family members

1. Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous

period of five years in the host Member State shall have the

right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be

subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.

2. Paragraph 1 shall apply also to family members who are

not nationals of a Member State and have legally resided with

the Union citizen in the host Member State for a continuous

period of five years.

3. Continuity of residence shall not be affected by temporary

absences not exceeding a total of six months a year, or by

absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service,

or by one absence of a maximum of 12 consecutive months

for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious

illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another

Member State or a third country.

4. Once acquired, the right of permanent residence shall be

lost only through absence from the host"

 

my underlining as this is part of Chapter 3

"(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family

members not to become a burden on the social assistance

system of the host Member State during their period of

residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover

in the host Member State; or"

Ergo - after 5 years, the sufficient resources specification can no longer apply.

[Deimos]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

On the tail of a post in another thread, I know

much is still in limbo but that it's being suggested that

anybody who's been resident for 5 years will be allowed to

remain in CMU.

Will this be on a rolling basis I wonder, that is

to say, once you have been resident for 5 years you get an

automatic "in" ? 

[/quote]

The 5 year thing is that after 5 years you get

permanent residence. It is nothing directly to do with the CMU or

health. However, having permanent residence means that you have the

same rights as a French citizen. Thus if a French citizen in the

same situation as you has the CMU available then so do you. thus is

EU global and cannot be overridden or "opted out of" by

individual countries.

BUT, you only get the same rights as a French

citizen would have. Given Sarkozy's hate of the "inactifs"

(of any nationality) he may respond by making the CMU unavailable to

French "inactifs" as well. But then again, given that the

impact of this on the health budgets is completely trivial and

irrelevant he might just decide not to alienate even more voting

French.

Ian

[AnOther]

[quote user="Deimos"]The 5 year thing is that after 5 years you get permanent residence. It is nothing directly to do with the CMU or health. However, having permanent residence means that you have the same rights as a French citizen. Thus if a French citizen in the same situation as you has the CMU available then so do you. thus is EU global and cannot be overridden or "opted out of" by individual countries.

BUT, you only get the same rights as a French citizen would have. Given Sarkozy's hate of the "inactifs" (of any nationality) he may respond by making the CMU unavailable to French "inactifs" as well. But then again, given that the impact of this on the health budgets is completely trivial and irrelevant he might just decide not to alienate even more voting French.

[/quote]Thanks for that.

Presumably at present the French are allowed to be "inactif" if they wish and still retain their CMU and surely, given their predisposition to direct action, would not the the application of the proposed changes be the catalyst for mass protest, or better still, a tractor blockade of Calais which seems to invariably work...!

Also this means that he's really got it back to front and should be tackling the French first and then, if he wins that battle, simply saying to the rest of us, "you too"

I wonder at what age Sarkozy plans to retire and what treatment (sic) he would receive if he fell into the "inactif" category?

[Clair]

[quote user="ErnieY"]Presumably at present the French are allowed to be "inactif" if they wish and still retain their CMU and surely, given their predisposition to direct action, would not the the application of the proposed changes be the catalyst for mass protest, or better still, a tractor blockade of Calais which seems to invariably work...!

Also this means that he's really got it back to front and should be tackling the French first and then, if he wins that battle, simply saying to the rest of us, "you too"

I wonder at what age Sarkozy plans to retire and what treatment (sic) he would receive if he fell into the "inactif" category?[/quote]

To my mind, this is still unclear.

Most French inactifs can be covered by being a named dependent on a working spouse's cover, by having been previously employed and still covered by their contributions or by being in receipt of unemployment benefit...

(and let us not forget the law that makes adult children responsible for their parents in need (obligation_de_secours_pour_les_ascendants), which allows social services to reclaim costs from adult children).

The current situation highlighted by the British (I choose to stop working to enjoy the fruits of my labour) is almost unknown in France, where people work until they reach the agreed retirement age, either national or for their profession.

My guess is that, when it happens, it is usually under the cover of a profession which allows a great deal of flexibility, whilst affording the worker maximum social cover, with the aid of a savvy accountant...

There is one person I know, a former market trader, who certainly does not work, is below retirement age and has several rental properties. I will try to make discreet enquiries... [Www]

[AnOther]

I'll watch with interest then Clair.

It's been asked before I'm sure but what are the normal retirement ages for the average French workers ?

Wasn't there something a couple of years ago where the lorry drivers wanted to retire at 50 or some such ?

[cooperlola]

True Ernie.  If my o/h had been employed by SNCF instead of BR and subsequently god knows how many private railway companies, he'd have been retired properly for nearly 4 years by now, no probs!  Although in the future, M. S won't allow this for railway workers, if I read him right, he'd be hard put to punish those who retired under previous legislation.  So one might argue, in his case, that he'd be retired anyway if subject to the same conditions as a French person in the same position.  A minefield of legislation and semantics. Our lobby groups gonna have fun![:-))]

[Clair]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

I'll watch with interest then Clair.

It's been asked before I'm sure but what are the normal retirement ages for the average French workers ?

Wasn't there something a couple of years ago where the lorry drivers wanted to retire at 50 or some such ?

[/quote]

So many variables...

For instance, my mother was able to retire at the age of 54 (if I remember correctly) by virtue of having brought up several children as a single parent, as well as having held the same hospital job for over 20 years...

[AnOther]

Sure to run and run Coops [:)]

[cooperlola]

Ain't that the truth.

[Helen]

[quote user="Clair"]
The current situation highlighted by the British (I choose to stop working to enjoy the fruits of my labour) is almost unknown in France, where people work until they reach the agreed retirement age, either national or for their profession.
My guess is that, when it happens, it is usually under the cover of a profession which allows a great deal of flexibility, whilst affording the worker maximum social cover, with the aid of a savvy accountant...

[/quote]

Figures from the OECD show only half of French people in their 50's are employed so they must be being financed from somewhere .

'Just 53% of over-50s in France are in employment. This is a low rate compared with other OECD countries whose average is 59%. The gap is particularly wide among less-skilled workers: in 2002, only 51% of unskilled men aged 50 to 64 in France had jobs, compared with 88% in Iceland, 80% in Switzerland and 78% in Japan.'

The trouble is that the in the UK you're still considered to be early retired even if you have reached the official retirement age for the job. OH 's normal retirement age was 55 (RAF) but he doesn't get a state pension until hes 65. My normal retirement age would be 60  (teachers) . I've just claimed it early at 55 but I won't be  entitled to a state pension for another 7 years when I'm 62 and a bit.

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Helen"]Figures from the OECD show only half of French people in their 50's are employed so they must be being financed from somewhere . [/quote]

I would venture that most of those do not actively choose to be inactive, which is what I was pointing to in my previous post.

Unemployed people over the age of 50 in France tend to be given a pre-retirement package by their former employer (a situation which is currently being looked at by Sarkozy's government) or  in receipt of unemployment benefit. It is generally accepted that finding a permanent job in France at the age of 50 is virtually impossible.

There are some details on the following pages concerning social cover for unemployed people:

In receipt of benefit

Not in receipt of benefit

Pre-retired

[Deimos]

Is there actually such a thing as

"pre-retired". I am what I and most people would call

"pre-retired" (not registered unemployed, not in receipt of

benefits, not seeking work, not yet at UK retirement age (65).

However, look at it another way and I

left my previous job and have not yet found another (not actually

looking too hard but that is just me). Once at the 5 year point

(permanent resident). It would not take long for me to register

un-employed (maybe half a day's effort). Suddenly I am no longer

"Inactif" but un-employed (and getting everything a French

person in the same situation would get.

There are lots of young French people

working in London for UK companies. When they leave their jobs and

return to France to find a job back home they will be "inactifs"

in the same way that I am "inactif". (OK they may look for

jobs while still working in the UK, but time off for interviews, high

competition for jobs, etc. would make the search easier in France).

They will have some savings (to live off), they will have no company

provided health contributions for any health cover mechanism. I

wonder if they will them have to take out a Private Insurance policy.

Just a thought.

Ian

[BJSLIV]

I wonder if they will them have to take out a Private Insurance policy?

No, because they are French nationals.

[Clair]

[quote user="Deimos"]There are lots of young French people

working in London for UK companies. When they leave their jobs and

return to France to find a job back home they will be "inactifs"

in the same way that I am "inactif". (OK they may look for

jobs while still working in the UK, but time off for interviews, high

competition for jobs, etc. would make the search easier in France).

They will have some savings (to live off), they will have no company

provided health contributions for any health cover mechanism. I

wonder if they will them have to take out a Private Insurance policy. Ian[/quote]

Many years ago, my brother-in-law was offered a job in New Caledonia. After about 4 or 5 years, the company he worked for announced they would not renew his contract and they decided to fly home. Their tickets were paid for as part of the repatriation package but they decided to take the long way home and to visit several countries on their way back to France.

On their return, my sister found out she was pregnant.

The French Sécurité Sociale calculated that he had become pregnant during their extended trip back and told her that, as they had chosen not to use the tickets provided by my BIL's former employer, the pregnancy could not be covered by the French system (to which they had not contributed), but could possibly be covered by the New Caledonian system, which they could no longer claim from...

During the pregnancy and after the birth, all costs (scans, gyne visits...) were paid for by my sister and BIL.

She was eventually able to claim them back from New Caledonia, but with great difficulty and after many many stressful months of haggle, which probably contributed to my niece's early arrival.

[Helen]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

I wonder if they will them have to take out a Private Insurance policy?

 

[/quote]

Well if they're coming back from the US (so definitely have no E106) they join the CMU or claim RMI

.

French citizens returning from abroad often inquire about health coverage they may obtain while in France. The « couverture maladie universelle » gives them access to health care under the conditions mentioned below if they do not have sufficient means to afford individual health coverage.

Established under the law of July 27, 1999 which went into force on January 1, 2000, the CMU comprises two aspects:

  it assures coverage under the Social Security regime.
  it offers free supplementary coverage and reimbursements guaranteed by the Social Security System. ........

French citizens returning to France from abroad who have subscribed to the ‘Caisse des Français de l’Etranger’ (CFE) are covered by this institution for the first 3 months after their return to France. It is better for a returning French citizen, if not eligible for unemployment, to apply for the RMI or ‘allocation d’insertion,’ which will give basic coverage.

NOTE: To obtain the CMU, you may be asked to pay a contribution of 8% of income from the previous year

(Conslate General de France a New York)